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[Music]

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welcome back guys to the disclosure team

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youtube channel i just want to give a

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quick shout out to everybody in the live

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chat watching this live now

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hello to everybody on youtube watching

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this after the fact thank you for for

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tuning in and to everybody listening to

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this on the anomalous podcast network i

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really appreciate you

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supporting the channel

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um i'm really excited for this

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conversation tonight um um i last spoke

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to dr clark last year where he came on

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and we discussed the cowboy case

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uh since then i i've actually met up

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with with david um had a great

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conversation

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and kept in touch and now we're here to

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discuss some other instances and cases

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and some of his work with regards to the

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ua the ufo

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cases in the uk

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so let's not waste any more time guys

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let's welcome dr david clarke

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david how are you i'm fine good evening

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thank you for joining me again

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yes oh i know we got it's funny isn't it

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yes so how are you good

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i'm fine yeah i'm back back at work back

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teaching again and uh you know still

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trying to sort of

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keep on top of what's going on in the

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ufo uh arena which seems to be sort of

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changing and mutating every time i look

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at it yeah absolutely absolutely well

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there's a few major points i'd like to

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discuss with you tonight um i think and

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i just mentioned this to you

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before we came on i just popped a poll

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in the the chat there to ask if anybody

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had heard of di55

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we're currently sitting at 74 as saying

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no so i think a very good place to start

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is uh what is or was should i say

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di55

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yeah well that is interesting in itself

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because it suggests it shows that the

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di-55s attempts to conceal itself

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and he's got he's always had this what

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he itself describes as a secret squirrel

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image

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it seems to have worked quite well

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because because basically they are

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or were um the intelligence branch of

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the british

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military or ministry of defense who were

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responsible for the investigation of

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ufos now most people will think that

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can't be right what what surely it was

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the the ufo desk and we've been told all

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these things

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uh over the years about how they were

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the um the central focus for the mod and

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ufos but

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um the the what the paperwork and there

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is literally masses of paperwork shows

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that that is not the case and we have

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some examples um

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going back into the archives which is

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uh

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my speciality and has been for the last

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20 years i mean i started going to the

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national archives

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must have been i think the first year i

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went there must be 1997 or 1998

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and that was the stage of which we still

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had the 30-year rule then and i was

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going down there as a journalist looking

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not at ufo related

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materials but

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they used to produce like a list on the

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first of january of what they were

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releasing so in 1998

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you'd be getting um

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files from 1968

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so a lot of the earlier ufo files had

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been destroyed which is

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honestly i cannot describe how um

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how that makes me feel having discovered

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that some of the really interesting

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files from that earlier period no longer

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exist but

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the thing was in 1998 we were finally

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getting to see some of the files that

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had survived from the late 1960s

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and i was getting part of my job was to

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go down and go through the files looking

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for um

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newspaper i was working for and i just

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used to just ignore that and i'd just

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sort of order up the ufo files

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and it got into like a

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you know quite a thing that i really

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enjoyed and i got more and more into the

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mind you shy of it and you've been to

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the archives yourself and some of you

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you've ordered up files it starts

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it's fun as well you feel something

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holding these documents in your hand

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yeah it's amazing and this that to me is

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proper research i mean and i don't

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regard so as much as social media is

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amazing and it's transformed

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what we all do

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there's only so much research you can do

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on twitter or on

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whatsapp or whatever i just think you

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really ha if you really

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want to get to the bottom of this

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subject

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you've got it and look you've got to

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immerse yourself

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in those documents because

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and and the thing is as what i did was

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didn't just rely on the documents i

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actually went through the documents with

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a fine-tooth comb and i actually

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produced like masses and masses of

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spreadsheets and

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using tracking down the people whose

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names appeared in those documents in the

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1960s and at that time 1998

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a lot of those people were still alive

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most of them have died

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subsequently but

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um a lot of the people who were involved

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in ufo investigations quite a high level

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in the ministry of defense were still

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alive in the late 90s when i started

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doing my research and

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to me it was because i did this as

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part of my job as a journalist i just

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thought i just got a name from a

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document john carruthers

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but james carruthers is a name that

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comes into my mind he was

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um the head of the the secretariat air

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staff brunch um that was responsible for

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ufos in 1967 and you couldn't just go

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online back then and just type in his

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name and track it down i had to look at

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it

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which is like a huge printed volume

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civil service directory and i found his

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name straight away in there and his

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phone number and i just phoned him up

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and said are you the jim carruthers who

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used to be in charge of ufos in the

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1960s and it was like yeah how did you

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find me and a couple of days later i was

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i was sitting in his living room

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drinking coffee you know and he was sort

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of

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talking without any restriction about

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you know what he remembered about that

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time so

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why what i wanted to get to the bottom

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of was did they investigate the subject

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if they did what did they discover and

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who was it who did the ufo

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investigations and it became pretty

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clear

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from very early doors that the people

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who had that interface with the general

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public the the desk that's since become

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known as the ufo desk yeah and as you'll

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know vince because you've seen the

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documents it changed its name

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so many times i mean back in the 60s it

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was known as s4 air then no it was

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originally s6 air then it was s4 air and

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then it became ds8 about 1988 then it

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changed to secretariat air staff

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which is

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the the branch that nick briefly worked

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for

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um and finally ended up as something

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called bas defense air secretariat or

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something but but

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what you quickly realize when you look

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at the files is they were the people who

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were acting as the public relations

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front so they dealt with the subject in

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terms of if a member of the public wrote

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in

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secretary air staff and

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in the 1980s when i was a teenager i

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started writing to them and a guy called

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clive neville

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who he was doing the ufo death job and

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he wrote back to me i'd got into quite a

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lengthy con

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correspondence with him

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but no one

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ever

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people behind that desk and and all that

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material you can see this from the files

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has been copied to two three sometimes

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four

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separate

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different agencies within the ministry

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of defense all through the 60s all

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through the 70s all through the 80s and

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up to the turn of the century and they

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included there was a branch called um

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again which changed its name which is

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which is part of the royal air force

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that was

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responsible for ground and air radar

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and so basically if there was an

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evidential sighting they were copied the

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material and basically would be can you

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check at this time date location

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direction did you have anything unusual

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on radar that was their task and at

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various times these different branches

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depending upon who was there and their

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level of interest in the subject they

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could sort of like assume the lead

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if you see what i mean it's difficult to

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explain but

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if like you had a complete skeptic

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sitting in sec a s who just thought this

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is a waste of time waste of money i

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don't want anything to do with it

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they would sort of recede into the

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distance and then if someone from the

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raf was more interested in it

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or someone from di55 had a personal

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interest in it they were the ones who

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did most of the work

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until they moved on because the people

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doing this job

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did it for usually for about three or

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four years like nick poop and then went

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on to another post

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you see what i mean so you've got this

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interface going on all the time but

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um despite

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all what i've said

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um when you actually look at the the

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actual documents it's very clearly said

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right from 1967

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that

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sec ass axes the focal point they almost

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like a triage sort of system you know

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like if you went into hospital with an

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injury you looked at by a nurse and the

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nurse says oh right you know you can go

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into this ward or you might need to see

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a consultant

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so

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basically sec-a-s were acting as the the

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triage section of the ministry of

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defense and they didn't want nosy

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parkers like ufologists and journalists

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you know getting beyond

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that brick wall so it was like and even

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even members of parliament you know when

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there were questions in parliament sakes

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dealt with that but when you actually

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look at the archives again as you've

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done vince you will see

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virtually everything that they said

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publicly like when they were responding

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to a parliamentary inquiry they didn't

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just

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was referred to di55

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particularly when it when it was

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something technical like when you got a

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question how many ufos have been seen on

283
00:11:02,150 --> 00:11:01,360
radar in 1984 for a second

284
00:11:02,949 --> 00:11:02,160
clue

285
00:11:04,870 --> 00:11:02,959
so

286
00:11:08,230 --> 00:11:04,880
we'll go and ask the raf or we'll go and

287
00:11:09,750 --> 00:11:08,240
ask the i-55 they've got all the data

288
00:11:12,710 --> 00:11:09,760
so they were the people who did the

289
00:11:14,949 --> 00:11:12,720
investigations as well i mean i

290
00:11:15,750 --> 00:11:14,959
i know it caused great controversy last

291
00:11:18,230 --> 00:11:15,760
year

292
00:11:20,630 --> 00:11:18,240
when i was asked about uh nick pope and

293
00:11:22,949 --> 00:11:20,640
ufo investigation i just i simply said

294
00:11:25,670 --> 00:11:22,959
he didn't investigate anything and i

295
00:11:27,430 --> 00:11:25,680
stand by that statement because

296
00:11:29,910 --> 00:11:27,440
a lot depends on how you interpret the

297
00:11:32,310 --> 00:11:29,920
word investigation

298
00:11:33,910 --> 00:11:32,320
now um the people who ran second yes

299
00:11:36,310 --> 00:11:33,920
simply weren't

300
00:11:40,230 --> 00:11:36,320
um it wasn't part of their tasks to

301
00:11:42,949 --> 00:11:40,240
actually investigate yeah they did refer

302
00:11:44,389 --> 00:11:42,959
reports to these other agencies

303
00:11:46,150 --> 00:11:44,399
to check whether things were seen on

304
00:11:48,550 --> 00:11:46,160
radar to check whether you know there

305
00:11:50,310 --> 00:11:48,560
were anything unusual about it but

306
00:11:52,389 --> 00:11:50,320
if i did an investigation as a

307
00:11:54,949 --> 00:11:52,399
journalist i would phone someone up i

308
00:11:56,790 --> 00:11:54,959
would go out i would visit the site i

309
00:11:58,790 --> 00:11:56,800
would speak to them i'd interview them

310
00:12:00,629 --> 00:11:58,800
you know i'd put all this stuff together

311
00:12:03,829 --> 00:12:00,639
that's an investigation

312
00:12:05,430 --> 00:12:03,839
and no one from seces ever did that

313
00:12:07,430 --> 00:12:05,440
they did it as part of the team and

314
00:12:08,870 --> 00:12:07,440
that's um the last time that that was

315
00:12:12,069 --> 00:12:08,880
done properly

316
00:12:15,350 --> 00:12:12,079
from what i can gather from the um

317
00:12:17,829 --> 00:12:15,360
from the files was in 1967 because they

318
00:12:20,550 --> 00:12:17,839
act because there was a big ufo flap

319
00:12:22,470 --> 00:12:20,560
in 1967 in october and i think they had

320
00:12:24,389 --> 00:12:22,480
something like three or three or 400

321
00:12:26,069 --> 00:12:24,399
sightings in the space of a few months

322
00:12:27,670 --> 00:12:26,079
and it caused there was a huge amount of

323
00:12:30,150 --> 00:12:27,680
press interest

324
00:12:33,030 --> 00:12:30,160
and um jinker others who's the guy i was

325
00:12:35,990 --> 00:12:33,040
talking about who was the head then of s

326
00:12:37,430 --> 00:12:36,000
for air who i interviewed he basically

327
00:12:38,949 --> 00:12:37,440
assembled this

328
00:12:41,670 --> 00:12:38,959
i mean you could almost call it an

329
00:12:42,389 --> 00:12:41,680
x-files team because that's what it was

330
00:12:43,509 --> 00:12:42,399
so

331
00:12:45,190 --> 00:12:43,519
it was him

332
00:12:46,790 --> 00:12:45,200
there was the guy who was running who

333
00:12:49,590 --> 00:12:46,800
was doing nick perk's job at the time

334
00:12:52,150 --> 00:12:49,600
there was the the guy from di55 who was

335
00:12:54,150 --> 00:12:52,160
a scientist called um covering his name

336
00:12:56,230 --> 00:12:54,160
now but he's it's in the files

337
00:12:59,430 --> 00:12:56,240
and another guy who was a raf

338
00:13:01,750 --> 00:12:59,440
psychologist called alex cassidy who i

339
00:13:03,670 --> 00:13:01,760
interviewed before he died um quite

340
00:13:05,590 --> 00:13:03,680
recently and

341
00:13:07,190 --> 00:13:05,600
you me alex cassie is an interesting

342
00:13:10,389 --> 00:13:07,200
character because if you've seen the

343
00:13:12,629 --> 00:13:10,399
film the great escape

344
00:13:14,790 --> 00:13:12,639
the character that that's played by

345
00:13:16,389 --> 00:13:14,800
donald pleasence who is the forger you

346
00:13:18,550 --> 00:13:16,399
know he creates all the forged documents

347
00:13:21,990 --> 00:13:18,560
so they can escape the nazi

348
00:13:23,190 --> 00:13:22,000
that was based upon alex cassie so he

349
00:13:26,389 --> 00:13:23,200
was

350
00:13:29,190 --> 00:13:26,399
um a quite famous um wartime and

351
00:13:31,350 --> 00:13:29,200
prisoner of war who went into psychology

352
00:13:32,389 --> 00:13:31,360
and he worked in the raf you know when

353
00:13:33,350 --> 00:13:32,399
training

354
00:13:35,110 --> 00:13:33,360
um

355
00:13:37,509 --> 00:13:35,120
pilots you know to overcome some of the

356
00:13:41,350 --> 00:13:37,519
hazards that they experience and he got

357
00:13:43,829 --> 00:13:41,360
into ufos because he was part of this um

358
00:13:45,590 --> 00:13:43,839
raf science section so he was part of

359
00:13:47,509 --> 00:13:45,600
this team that actually went out and did

360
00:13:49,750 --> 00:13:47,519
field investigations which is something

361
00:13:51,829 --> 00:13:49,760
they have never done again

362
00:13:54,069 --> 00:13:51,839
since the 1960s and they actually went

363
00:13:56,629 --> 00:13:54,079
out and interviewed close encounter

364
00:13:59,350 --> 00:13:56,639
um witnesses and all the

365
00:14:01,269 --> 00:13:59,360
members of the public yeah yeah wow

366
00:14:03,590 --> 00:14:01,279
proper boots on the ground

367
00:14:05,590 --> 00:14:03,600
yeah they did proper investigations and

368
00:14:07,350 --> 00:14:05,600
they were properly funded to do that so

369
00:14:08,389 --> 00:14:07,360
i mean if you want to put up the first

370
00:14:10,069 --> 00:14:08,399
document

371
00:14:11,509 --> 00:14:10,079
absolutely absolutely

372
00:14:12,710 --> 00:14:11,519
this is from

373
00:14:15,030 --> 00:14:12,720
um

374
00:14:16,629 --> 00:14:15,040
i think that's the second one is it no

375
00:14:18,069 --> 00:14:16,639
no it isn't no no this is the first one

376
00:14:20,629 --> 00:14:18,079
so

377
00:14:23,430 --> 00:14:20,639
this is an actual document and created

378
00:14:26,710 --> 00:14:23,440
by a guy called eric humpston

379
00:14:28,069 --> 00:14:26,720
and he was um the di55

380
00:14:29,350 --> 00:14:28,079
ufo

381
00:14:31,069 --> 00:14:29,360
officer

382
00:14:35,670 --> 00:14:31,079
quite a title in

383
00:14:38,150 --> 00:14:35,680
1967 and di55 is a branch of the

384
00:14:39,829 --> 00:14:38,160
of the defense intelligence staff

385
00:14:42,790 --> 00:14:39,839
and the thing is what you need to

386
00:14:46,470 --> 00:14:42,800
understand about this is the modern mod

387
00:14:47,430 --> 00:14:46,480
didn't exist until about 1962

388
00:14:49,509 --> 00:14:47,440
so

389
00:14:51,350 --> 00:14:49,519
after the second world war there was a

390
00:14:53,590 --> 00:14:51,360
ministry of defense but it was a tiny

391
00:14:55,829 --> 00:14:53,600
little sort of thing compared to what it

392
00:14:57,990 --> 00:14:55,839
is today so what you had was

393
00:15:00,150 --> 00:14:58,000
three different branches of the um armed

394
00:15:02,150 --> 00:15:00,160
forces in the uk so you have the royal

395
00:15:05,990 --> 00:15:02,160
air force royal navy

396
00:15:08,310 --> 00:15:06,000
and um the army effectively yeah and

397
00:15:09,990 --> 00:15:08,320
they all had their own intelligence

398
00:15:12,790 --> 00:15:10,000
branches

399
00:15:14,870 --> 00:15:12,800
so um so when they started investigating

400
00:15:18,389 --> 00:15:14,880
ufos or flying sources as they were

401
00:15:19,829 --> 00:15:18,399
originally known in the early 1950s

402
00:15:21,509 --> 00:15:19,839
um it was

403
00:15:23,189 --> 00:15:21,519
after a bit of initial confusion you

404
00:15:25,269 --> 00:15:23,199
know there was that study that was done

405
00:15:27,670 --> 00:15:25,279
for winston churchill in the 1950s we

406
00:15:30,550 --> 00:15:27,680
haven't got the time to go into that

407
00:15:33,990 --> 00:15:30,560
next time yeah next time maybe um the

408
00:15:35,910 --> 00:15:34,000
the mod were in charge of um doing a

409
00:15:37,269 --> 00:15:35,920
study of ufos then an intelligence study

410
00:15:39,350 --> 00:15:37,279
but they basically said we don't need to

411
00:15:41,910 --> 00:15:39,360
look at it anymore and then there was a

412
00:15:43,829 --> 00:15:41,920
very evidential sighting which i think

413
00:15:47,990 --> 00:15:43,839
is one of the best

414
00:15:49,509 --> 00:15:48,000
um ufo reports from the uk ever the

415
00:15:51,829 --> 00:15:49,519
some of your listeners may be aware of

416
00:15:56,150 --> 00:15:51,839
the top cliff sighting raf top cliff in

417
00:15:58,949 --> 00:15:56,160
north yorkshire in september 1952 it was

418
00:16:00,870 --> 00:15:58,959
a daylight disc that followed a meteor

419
00:16:03,509 --> 00:16:00,880
jet during

420
00:16:04,790 --> 00:16:03,519
a nato exercise it was seen by a whole

421
00:16:07,670 --> 00:16:04,800
crowd of

422
00:16:10,230 --> 00:16:07,680
raf um airmen from the ground and

423
00:16:13,110 --> 00:16:10,240
tracked on radar as well i understand

424
00:16:15,350 --> 00:16:13,120
and basically that overturned this

425
00:16:17,110 --> 00:16:15,360
earlier um sort of dismissal of the

426
00:16:19,430 --> 00:16:17,120
subject and that

427
00:16:22,310 --> 00:16:19,440
led the air ministry to set up

428
00:16:24,150 --> 00:16:22,320
effectively the ufo desk as it then was

429
00:16:25,990 --> 00:16:24,160
but it was under it was under the air

430
00:16:29,509 --> 00:16:26,000
ministry

431
00:16:30,870 --> 00:16:29,519
from the early 1950s until the mid-1960s

432
00:16:32,389 --> 00:16:30,880
and that's when

433
00:16:34,310 --> 00:16:32,399
basically i think it was under lord

434
00:16:36,710 --> 00:16:34,320
mountbatten they said

435
00:16:38,629 --> 00:16:36,720
we can't have three different services

436
00:16:39,990 --> 00:16:38,639
running the mod we need to combine them

437
00:16:42,949 --> 00:16:40,000
all

438
00:16:44,949 --> 00:16:42,959
so the air ministry the night the navy

439
00:16:47,430 --> 00:16:44,959
and the army all their intelligence

440
00:16:48,949 --> 00:16:47,440
sections came together um

441
00:16:50,710 --> 00:16:48,959
and that's where the defense

442
00:16:53,509 --> 00:16:50,720
intelligence staff

443
00:16:55,990 --> 00:16:53,519
came into being it existed before but it

444
00:16:57,269 --> 00:16:56,000
all the combined three services came

445
00:16:58,069 --> 00:16:57,279
under one

446
00:17:04,390 --> 00:16:58,079
um

447
00:17:07,350 --> 00:17:04,400
what was known as dsti so you can see

448
00:17:08,150 --> 00:17:07,360
the sdi on that document there

449
00:17:09,230 --> 00:17:08,160
so

450
00:17:12,069 --> 00:17:09,240
up to

451
00:17:13,669 --> 00:17:12,079
1967 it was a branch of the air ministry

452
00:17:15,270 --> 00:17:13,679
called tech and the air tech

453
00:17:17,270 --> 00:17:15,280
intelligence branch which i think is

454
00:17:20,470 --> 00:17:17,280
mentioned in there somewhere that was

455
00:17:21,829 --> 00:17:20,480
responsible for ufo investigations

456
00:17:24,390 --> 00:17:21,839
and um

457
00:17:26,630 --> 00:17:24,400
at that time apparently they had people

458
00:17:28,390 --> 00:17:26,640
working on this full-time

459
00:17:30,789 --> 00:17:28,400
you know so they had military air

460
00:17:33,190 --> 00:17:30,799
ministry intelligence officers whose

461
00:17:34,470 --> 00:17:33,200
entire responsibility was to investigate

462
00:17:36,549 --> 00:17:34,480
ufos

463
00:17:39,029 --> 00:17:36,559
you know that's something that hasn't

464
00:17:40,230 --> 00:17:39,039
been the case ever since the 1960s but

465
00:17:43,430 --> 00:17:40,240
it was then

466
00:17:45,430 --> 00:17:43,440
so in 1967 and this is the document from

467
00:17:47,029 --> 00:17:45,440
the national archives that shows when

468
00:17:49,350 --> 00:17:47,039
this happened

469
00:17:51,750 --> 00:17:49,360
they transferred the responsibility for

470
00:17:53,590 --> 00:17:51,760
ufo investigations from the air ministry

471
00:17:55,190 --> 00:17:53,600
that as you can see

472
00:17:57,750 --> 00:17:55,200
these investigations were originally

473
00:17:59,510 --> 00:17:57,760
carried out by tech intelligence air but

474
00:18:02,549 --> 00:17:59,520
they became the responsibility of the

475
00:18:04,549 --> 00:18:02,559
space section in di55 from the beginning

476
00:18:06,870 --> 00:18:04,559
of may 1967

477
00:18:10,070 --> 00:18:06,880
and you can see there as it says very

478
00:18:13,750 --> 00:18:10,080
very clearly that when ufos items come

479
00:18:16,310 --> 00:18:13,760
in they go to s4f air and that is the

480
00:18:17,830 --> 00:18:16,320
ufo desk where nick poop

481
00:18:21,110 --> 00:18:17,840
worked and

482
00:18:22,870 --> 00:18:21,120
two or three decades later um basically

483
00:18:24,630 --> 00:18:22,880
they were the triage they were the

484
00:18:26,150 --> 00:18:24,640
people who sort of received the reports

485
00:18:27,430 --> 00:18:26,160
and copied them

486
00:18:28,549 --> 00:18:27,440
straight away to all these different

487
00:18:30,630 --> 00:18:28,559
branches and it's there on the

488
00:18:32,950 --> 00:18:30,640
distribution list and

489
00:18:35,110 --> 00:18:32,960
it stays very clearly there in the cases

490
00:18:37,430 --> 00:18:35,120
where there is no immediate satisfactory

491
00:18:39,990 --> 00:18:37,440
explanation that can be determined for

492
00:18:41,750 --> 00:18:40,000
instance these are truly unidentified

493
00:18:43,510 --> 00:18:41,760
flying objects so this is what we're

494
00:18:47,110 --> 00:18:43,520
interested in folks isn't it really yeah

495
00:18:49,750 --> 00:18:47,120
yeah and dsti are required by mod to

496
00:18:51,590 --> 00:18:49,760
carry out further investigations it's

497
00:18:52,789 --> 00:18:51,600
there in black and white and if we go to

498
00:18:54,549 --> 00:18:52,799
the next

499
00:18:57,830 --> 00:18:54,559
document can i just ask a question about

500
00:18:58,630 --> 00:18:57,840
that quickly with regards to s for

501
00:18:59,990 --> 00:18:58,640
air

502
00:19:01,029 --> 00:19:00,000
yeah they're the ones who say that pass

503
00:19:02,789 --> 00:19:01,039
it off

504
00:19:04,950 --> 00:19:02,799
you know they're the triage people and

505
00:19:06,630 --> 00:19:04,960
that's where nick pope worked after the

506
00:19:08,789 --> 00:19:06,640
investigations have been done by whoever

507
00:19:10,870 --> 00:19:08,799
they passed it off to do s4 air then get

508
00:19:11,990 --> 00:19:10,880
the conclusive data that has been put

509
00:19:14,710 --> 00:19:12,000
together

510
00:19:19,190 --> 00:19:17,350
answered by your next document oh the

511
00:19:21,110 --> 00:19:19,200
answer to that

512
00:19:22,870 --> 00:19:21,120
fantastic if you go to this one and you

513
00:19:26,150 --> 00:19:22,880
can expand that

514
00:19:28,070 --> 00:19:26,160
this is a guy this is the bloke who um

515
00:19:31,110 --> 00:19:28,080
took over the reigns from jim carruthers

516
00:19:33,190 --> 00:19:31,120
in the 1960s a boat called james paduzi

517
00:19:36,630 --> 00:19:33,200
who i wasn't able to track down despite

518
00:19:39,590 --> 00:19:36,640
his very um striking unusual surname

519
00:19:41,110 --> 00:19:39,600
um and he wrote quite a lot about ufos

520
00:19:43,190 --> 00:19:41,120
he seems to be quite into the subject

521
00:19:45,430 --> 00:19:43,200
and as you can see this is like a as an

522
00:19:47,909 --> 00:19:45,440
extract from a quite a lengthy

523
00:19:50,549 --> 00:19:47,919
memo that he sent is circulated around

524
00:19:54,390 --> 00:19:50,559
all these um top brass of the mod

525
00:19:55,990 --> 00:19:54,400
in 1977 and 1977 was a big year for ufos

526
00:19:58,310 --> 00:19:56,000
as well there was all the sightings in

527
00:20:00,310 --> 00:19:58,320
wales you know the welsh triangle the

528
00:20:02,630 --> 00:20:00,320
the the sighting by the school children

529
00:20:04,230 --> 00:20:02,640
of broad haven that's constantly

530
00:20:06,549 --> 00:20:04,240
recovering

531
00:20:07,830 --> 00:20:06,559
david davis one of the

532
00:20:09,830 --> 00:20:07,840
school boys

533
00:20:11,510 --> 00:20:09,840
um he's become a bit of a celebrity now

534
00:20:12,789 --> 00:20:11,520
and the interesting thing was it was

535
00:20:15,350 --> 00:20:12,799
seeing

536
00:20:17,510 --> 00:20:15,360
um john seen that on john craven's news

537
00:20:18,950 --> 00:20:17,520
round when i was 10 years old and seeing

538
00:20:21,270 --> 00:20:18,960
those kids being interviewed and they

539
00:20:23,430 --> 00:20:21,280
were the same age as me they were all 10

540
00:20:26,549 --> 00:20:23,440
that got me into ufos

541
00:20:28,630 --> 00:20:26,559
wow right all those years ago but

542
00:20:30,870 --> 00:20:28,640
interestingly enough you look at the the

543
00:20:32,630 --> 00:20:30,880
files that survive on this and and this

544
00:20:35,110 --> 00:20:32,640
is this document is actually talking

545
00:20:37,669 --> 00:20:35,120
about the west wales sightings

546
00:20:39,510 --> 00:20:37,679
and paducah is saying

547
00:20:41,909 --> 00:20:39,520
um we've had lots of inquiries about

548
00:20:44,149 --> 00:20:41,919
these welsh sightings and we've we've

549
00:20:45,190 --> 00:20:44,159
actually asked the um

550
00:20:47,430 --> 00:20:45,200
the the

551
00:20:50,549 --> 00:20:47,440
air force's police

552
00:20:52,789 --> 00:20:50,559
to make a discreet investigation of

553
00:20:54,230 --> 00:20:52,799
what's been going on in wales basically

554
00:20:56,950 --> 00:20:54,240
and he doesn't actually say what the

555
00:20:58,870 --> 00:20:56,960
result of that investigation was

556
00:21:00,950 --> 00:20:58,880
and he says that this is something that

557
00:21:03,590 --> 00:21:00,960
um trying to keep quiet and they haven't

558
00:21:06,149 --> 00:21:03,600
even told um the local mp that that's

559
00:21:08,230 --> 00:21:06,159
what they're doing wow so they basically

560
00:21:11,110 --> 00:21:08,240
sent an undercover team of raf police

561
00:21:11,990 --> 00:21:11,120
officers to west wales to investigate

562
00:21:13,750 --> 00:21:12,000
um

563
00:21:15,669 --> 00:21:13,760
undercover and

564
00:21:17,350 --> 00:21:15,679
didn't tell the local mp who would

565
00:21:19,430 --> 00:21:17,360
actually raise the subject with them in

566
00:21:21,990 --> 00:21:19,440
the first place and you can see here

567
00:21:24,070 --> 00:21:22,000
he's trying to explain to his managers

568
00:21:26,230 --> 00:21:24,080
and to ministers

569
00:21:28,070 --> 00:21:26,240
what how they go about investigating

570
00:21:29,190 --> 00:21:28,080
this subject and he says it's always

571
00:21:31,270 --> 00:21:29,200
possible

572
00:21:32,870 --> 00:21:31,280
that he's saying we get all these nuts

573
00:21:35,590 --> 00:21:32,880
writing to us and all these sort of

574
00:21:37,350 --> 00:21:35,600
weirdos and what have you bought

575
00:21:40,230 --> 00:21:37,360
you know we don't really want to engage

576
00:21:42,789 --> 00:21:40,240
with these with these people but we

577
00:21:44,549 --> 00:21:42,799
can't ignore the subject and as he says

578
00:21:47,350 --> 00:21:44,559
um despite the considerable

579
00:21:49,669 --> 00:21:47,360
correspondence addressed to the mod we

580
00:21:52,230 --> 00:21:49,679
can't ignore it because there might be

581
00:21:55,029 --> 00:21:52,240
something in there you know like um

582
00:21:57,430 --> 00:21:55,039
a pearl in an oyster oh yeah you know

583
00:22:00,149 --> 00:21:57,440
hiding somewhere in the noise that there

584
00:22:03,029 --> 00:22:00,159
might be something like he says there of

585
00:22:04,710 --> 00:22:03,039
with hostile terrestrial origin

586
00:22:06,149 --> 00:22:04,720
which could have a bearing on national

587
00:22:07,270 --> 00:22:06,159
security he's obviously talking about

588
00:22:08,310 --> 00:22:07,280
the russians

589
00:22:10,070 --> 00:22:08,320
yeah

590
00:22:13,029 --> 00:22:10,080
that's the only conclusion you can you

591
00:22:15,830 --> 00:22:13,039
can make we have therefore been careful

592
00:22:20,230 --> 00:22:15,840
to refer all ufo inc inquiries from the

593
00:22:21,990 --> 00:22:20,240
public to a d d i 55 a d is basically

594
00:22:24,950 --> 00:22:22,000
the person who

595
00:22:27,510 --> 00:22:24,960
is di55 because that will be the

596
00:22:30,390 --> 00:22:27,520
assistant director of defense

597
00:22:31,990 --> 00:22:30,400
intelligence staff branch 55

598
00:22:34,070 --> 00:22:32,000
so there's a there's a person who's a

599
00:22:35,669 --> 00:22:34,080
scientist or a military person some of

600
00:22:38,470 --> 00:22:35,679
them were from the raf some were from

601
00:22:41,510 --> 00:22:38,480
the royal navy some were just scientists

602
00:22:44,390 --> 00:22:41,520
who did that job and the other um one

603
00:22:46,310 --> 00:22:44,400
you can see there dd ops g e ref is the

604
00:22:48,870 --> 00:22:46,320
raf branch i was talking about earlier

605
00:22:50,630 --> 00:22:48,880
that's ground environment raf so the

606
00:22:53,350 --> 00:22:50,640
people who

607
00:22:56,070 --> 00:22:53,360
basically said a huge bank of computers

608
00:22:58,470 --> 00:22:56,080
that are receiving live feed from the

609
00:23:00,630 --> 00:22:58,480
radar stations around the east coast so

610
00:23:02,870 --> 00:23:00,640
they're watching a live picture

611
00:23:05,750 --> 00:23:02,880
everything approaching the uk they see

612
00:23:08,950 --> 00:23:05,760
it on radar so they're the other branch

613
00:23:11,430 --> 00:23:08,960
so there were the two branches that um

614
00:23:13,110 --> 00:23:11,440
were sent ufo reports for further

615
00:23:14,549 --> 00:23:13,120
investigation

616
00:23:16,710 --> 00:23:14,559
which they might consider to be

617
00:23:19,350 --> 00:23:16,720
justified now the interesting line to

618
00:23:22,630 --> 00:23:19,360
answer your question vinnie is as a

619
00:23:25,510 --> 00:23:22,640
secretary at branch i.e we ask villians

620
00:23:28,230 --> 00:23:25,520
who don't have top secret clearance

621
00:23:31,029 --> 00:23:28,240
s for air does not need to know about

622
00:23:32,870 --> 00:23:31,039
this type of inquiry and we do not ask

623
00:23:34,870 --> 00:23:32,880
for further information

624
00:23:37,270 --> 00:23:34,880
we tell the public flatly that we cannot

625
00:23:38,870 --> 00:23:37,280
enter into detailed in correspondence

626
00:23:39,909 --> 00:23:38,880
and all inquiries

627
00:23:41,350 --> 00:23:39,919
you know

628
00:23:43,269 --> 00:23:41,360
we don't take it any further so

629
00:23:46,470 --> 00:23:43,279
basically saying we just send this stuff

630
00:23:48,630 --> 00:23:46,480
to di-55 they've got the responsibility

631
00:23:50,710 --> 00:23:48,640
if they think it's worth following up

632
00:23:53,909 --> 00:23:50,720
they get on with it we don't want to

633
00:23:56,710 --> 00:23:53,919
know what they do basically and again

634
00:23:58,710 --> 00:23:56,720
that that underlines what what was laid

635
00:24:00,390 --> 00:23:58,720
down in writing 10 years before this in

636
00:24:02,310 --> 00:24:00,400
the earlier memo

637
00:24:07,990 --> 00:24:02,320
that you've just been

638
00:24:10,870 --> 00:24:09,430
yeah no absolutely well yeah that's a

639
00:24:12,470 --> 00:24:10,880
good point

640
00:24:14,630 --> 00:24:12,480
where was that maybe that's in this some

641
00:24:16,070 --> 00:24:14,640
of the stuff they destroyed

642
00:24:17,909 --> 00:24:16,080
yes

643
00:24:19,590 --> 00:24:17,919
yeah because what you want what what you

644
00:24:21,029 --> 00:24:19,600
need to understand from this is at the

645
00:24:22,710 --> 00:24:21,039
time these people were writing these

646
00:24:25,430 --> 00:24:22,720
documents there was no such thing as the

647
00:24:27,190 --> 00:24:25,440
freedom of information act of course

648
00:24:29,669 --> 00:24:27,200
the freedom of information act basically

649
00:24:32,710 --> 00:24:29,679
didn't come into uk law until the late

650
00:24:35,750 --> 00:24:32,720
1990s and it was like massively resisted

651
00:24:37,269 --> 00:24:35,760
by all the um um the military and

652
00:24:39,350 --> 00:24:37,279
intelligence people

653
00:24:41,669 --> 00:24:39,360
they didn't want to even engage with it

654
00:24:43,750 --> 00:24:41,679
at all so you so if you can sort of like

655
00:24:47,350 --> 00:24:43,760
put yourself into the minds of these

656
00:24:48,789 --> 00:24:47,360
people who were writing in 1967 and 1977

657
00:24:51,110 --> 00:24:48,799
they thought that what they were putting

658
00:24:53,750 --> 00:24:51,120
down no one outside of that little

659
00:24:57,990 --> 00:24:53,760
bubble would ever read it so the fact

660
00:24:59,430 --> 00:24:58,000
that we are sitting here now in 20 20 22

661
00:25:02,549 --> 00:24:59,440
reading this

662
00:25:04,870 --> 00:25:02,559
basically is is amazing because yeah a

663
00:25:06,310 --> 00:25:04,880
lot of the earliest stuff went in the uh

664
00:25:08,390 --> 00:25:06,320
incinerator

665
00:25:09,990 --> 00:25:08,400
yeah and it's it's only because now

666
00:25:12,789 --> 00:25:10,000
they're not allowed to destroy this

667
00:25:14,470 --> 00:25:12,799
material that we're actually reading it

668
00:25:17,750 --> 00:25:14,480
yeah i just wanted to address this quick

669
00:25:19,830 --> 00:25:17,760
comment here kd uh k 42d says why does

670
00:25:21,909 --> 00:25:19,840
he assume it's the russians well i think

671
00:25:23,750 --> 00:25:21,919
what it says it says you know if it's if

672
00:25:24,710 --> 00:25:23,760
it's of a hostile terrestrial origin

673
00:25:26,950 --> 00:25:24,720
then it's

674
00:25:27,830 --> 00:25:26,960
gonna be an adverse adversary basically

675
00:25:30,070 --> 00:25:27,840
yeah

676
00:25:31,110 --> 00:25:30,080
so russian chinese and you know whoever

677
00:25:33,510 --> 00:25:31,120
yeah

678
00:25:35,029 --> 00:25:33,520
so it's a bit of a broad broadband very

679
00:25:37,909 --> 00:25:35,039
cool they could be referring to the

680
00:25:40,950 --> 00:25:37,919
chinese you know but i mean the who are

681
00:25:42,950 --> 00:25:40,960
the enemy who were the enemy exactly it

682
00:25:45,269 --> 00:25:42,960
was the soviet union which still existed

683
00:25:47,430 --> 00:25:45,279
at that time of course of course so it's

684
00:25:48,630 --> 00:25:47,440
not really an assumption more of just a

685
00:25:50,390 --> 00:25:48,640
it's not

686
00:25:52,630 --> 00:25:50,400
extraterrestrial we're talking about the

687
00:25:54,470 --> 00:25:52,640
possibility of it being terrestrial

688
00:25:56,710 --> 00:25:54,480
adversarial and this kind of mirrors

689
00:25:58,149 --> 00:25:56,720
what we're seeing you know that nowadays

690
00:26:00,310 --> 00:25:58,159
what we see out of the pentagon with

691
00:26:02,950 --> 00:26:00,320
this potential threat narrative it could

692
00:26:05,110 --> 00:26:02,960
be adversarial technology it could be

693
00:26:08,230 --> 00:26:05,120
off-world technology it almost mirrors

694
00:26:09,590 --> 00:26:08,240
that with regards to that statement

695
00:26:10,710 --> 00:26:09,600
yeah and there was a lot of quite

696
00:26:13,190 --> 00:26:10,720
embarrassing things that they were

697
00:26:15,350 --> 00:26:13,200
trying to hide and one of the main ones

698
00:26:18,789 --> 00:26:15,360
that's become apparent to me is um

699
00:26:20,549 --> 00:26:18,799
basically their radar cover was rubbish

700
00:26:23,830 --> 00:26:20,559
you know but basically the radars were

701
00:26:25,830 --> 00:26:23,840
looking out towards the north sea

702
00:26:28,230 --> 00:26:25,840
because that's where they expected any

703
00:26:30,390 --> 00:26:28,240
threat um to be seen

704
00:26:32,230 --> 00:26:30,400
uh approaching the uk because this is

705
00:26:34,789 --> 00:26:32,240
this is this is the cold war and they

706
00:26:36,870 --> 00:26:34,799
were totally focused on the enemy as

707
00:26:38,230 --> 00:26:36,880
they saw it the soviet union and they

708
00:26:39,590 --> 00:26:38,240
thought that if anything's going to be

709
00:26:41,669 --> 00:26:39,600
seen on radar

710
00:26:43,750 --> 00:26:41,679
it's going to be coming over the the

711
00:26:46,149 --> 00:26:43,760
arctic um which is where the russian

712
00:26:48,549 --> 00:26:46,159
planes still they still do this don't

713
00:26:51,029 --> 00:26:48,559
they fly over they test our defenses

714
00:26:53,190 --> 00:26:51,039
and unfortunately a lot of the ufo

715
00:26:54,470 --> 00:26:53,200
sightings which they were asked to

716
00:26:57,909 --> 00:26:54,480
investigate

717
00:27:00,149 --> 00:26:57,919
um k were sightings of things over land

718
00:27:01,909 --> 00:27:00,159
over the uk and

719
00:27:02,789 --> 00:27:01,919
what you see is all this embarrassing

720
00:27:04,630 --> 00:27:02,799
sort of

721
00:27:06,630 --> 00:27:04,640
correspondence between the different

722
00:27:08,710 --> 00:27:06,640
branches saying well our radar wasn't

723
00:27:10,950 --> 00:27:08,720
working that night or

724
00:27:13,510 --> 00:27:10,960
we don't have any cover over north of

725
00:27:16,310 --> 00:27:13,520
england after 9 00 pm because someone

726
00:27:18,389 --> 00:27:16,320
switches it off and goes home

727
00:27:20,149 --> 00:27:18,399
i came across some articles in the

728
00:27:22,710 --> 00:27:20,159
archives myself where a lot of reports

729
00:27:25,269 --> 00:27:22,720
were being thrown to raf filing dale

730
00:27:25,909 --> 00:27:25,279
saying did you guys see this and that

731
00:27:28,789 --> 00:27:25,919
and

732
00:27:30,630 --> 00:27:28,799
all these cases like it was i i didn't

733
00:27:32,950 --> 00:27:30,640
expect to see that

734
00:27:34,789 --> 00:27:32,960
i really didn't this is this is this if

735
00:27:36,470 --> 00:27:34,799
there is a cover up this is the source

736
00:27:39,590 --> 00:27:36,480
of the cover-up because they are

737
00:27:41,350 --> 00:27:39,600
embarrassed about um some of this stuff

738
00:27:44,149 --> 00:27:41,360
they don't want

739
00:27:47,269 --> 00:27:44,159
us to know how poorly defended we were

740
00:27:50,070 --> 00:27:47,279
and what chaotic sort of bureaucratic

741
00:27:51,909 --> 00:27:50,080
system was in place so that i mean like

742
00:27:53,750 --> 00:27:51,919
you see this with the rental

743
00:27:55,430 --> 00:27:53,760
incident in that

744
00:27:58,149 --> 00:27:55,440
you know that

745
00:28:01,350 --> 00:27:58,159
if something was hovering over um

746
00:28:04,230 --> 00:28:01,360
suffolk that night in 1980 then you know

747
00:28:06,230 --> 00:28:04,240
and if colonel holt really thought that

748
00:28:08,230 --> 00:28:06,240
this thing was threatening a nato base

749
00:28:10,070 --> 00:28:08,240
then why didn't he why don't you get on

750
00:28:12,070 --> 00:28:10,080
the blower to um

751
00:28:14,149 --> 00:28:12,080
you know raf neeti said and say there's

752
00:28:16,710 --> 00:28:14,159
a ufo over one of our most sensitive

753
00:28:18,710 --> 00:28:16,720
bases get those fighters in the sky

754
00:28:19,909 --> 00:28:18,720
you know scramble them now

755
00:28:21,510 --> 00:28:19,919
yeah

756
00:28:23,350 --> 00:28:21,520
he didn't really or he wasn't taken

757
00:28:26,389 --> 00:28:23,360
seriously so there's somewhere along the

758
00:28:27,830 --> 00:28:26,399
line basically um they messed up

759
00:28:29,110 --> 00:28:27,840
and that's what they're trying to cover

760
00:28:31,029 --> 00:28:29,120
up

761
00:28:32,470 --> 00:28:31,039
you know it's the ignorance and

762
00:28:34,470 --> 00:28:32,480
incompetence

763
00:28:36,950 --> 00:28:34,480
you know and it's embarrassing so it's

764
00:28:39,350 --> 00:28:36,960
easier to just destroy the evidence

765
00:28:41,190 --> 00:28:39,360
than it is to admit that you know sorry

766
00:28:42,149 --> 00:28:41,200
sorry we had the radar switched off that

767
00:28:46,470 --> 00:28:42,159
night

768
00:28:49,110 --> 00:28:48,310
yeah and the base commander doesn't take

769
00:28:50,549 --> 00:28:49,120
a hit

770
00:28:53,669 --> 00:28:50,559
yeah

771
00:28:57,510 --> 00:28:53,679
next document was but i'm sure it's

772
00:28:59,909 --> 00:28:57,520
something interesting let's get it up

773
00:29:02,149 --> 00:28:59,919
we're moving now towards

774
00:29:04,549 --> 00:29:02,159
oh yeah this is just another

775
00:29:06,789 --> 00:29:04,559
if such proof was needed now this is a

776
00:29:09,909 --> 00:29:06,799
chat that i've spoken to

777
00:29:12,470 --> 00:29:09,919
um he was um in charge of the di50 he

778
00:29:15,350 --> 00:29:12,480
was the di55 ufo officer

779
00:29:18,070 --> 00:29:15,360
um in the late 1970s again he got an

780
00:29:20,789 --> 00:29:18,080
unusual surname asteraki so it didn't

781
00:29:22,549 --> 00:29:20,799
take me long to track him down

782
00:29:24,870 --> 00:29:22,559
so

783
00:29:27,029 --> 00:29:24,880
and he was more than willing to talk to

784
00:29:28,870 --> 00:29:27,039
me despite the fact that you know

785
00:29:29,990 --> 00:29:28,880
the problem you have with these di

786
00:29:31,990 --> 00:29:30,000
people is they've all signed the

787
00:29:34,470 --> 00:29:32,000
official secret sack they've been told

788
00:29:35,269 --> 00:29:34,480
under no circumstances are you to speak

789
00:29:37,110 --> 00:29:35,279
to

790
00:29:39,269 --> 00:29:37,120
members of the public and especially not

791
00:29:40,470 --> 00:29:39,279
journalists about what you did when you

792
00:29:42,470 --> 00:29:40,480
were working for

793
00:29:44,630 --> 00:29:42,480
the mod and

794
00:29:46,870 --> 00:29:44,640
let's be serious about this these people

795
00:29:48,070 --> 00:29:46,880
um i can understand why they are

796
00:29:49,510 --> 00:29:48,080
sensitive

797
00:29:51,350 --> 00:29:49,520
about um

798
00:29:52,149 --> 00:29:51,360
being interviewed because these people

799
00:29:54,389 --> 00:29:52,159
were

800
00:29:58,149 --> 00:29:54,399
up to some pretty

801
00:29:59,830 --> 00:29:58,159
um secretive stuff espionage um

802
00:30:03,190 --> 00:29:59,840
you know doing stuff um doing the

803
00:30:05,350 --> 00:30:03,200
undercover work in the soviet union and

804
00:30:07,750 --> 00:30:05,360
it's like

805
00:30:09,909 --> 00:30:07,760
do we really want to sort of expose them

806
00:30:11,510 --> 00:30:09,919
to a potential enemy given you know what

807
00:30:13,669 --> 00:30:11,520
we've seen has happened in salisbury

808
00:30:15,669 --> 00:30:13,679
with the scribbles and that kind of

809
00:30:18,470 --> 00:30:15,679
thing i don't want to do that

810
00:30:20,630 --> 00:30:18,480
um but but i still think that they

811
00:30:22,630 --> 00:30:20,640
shouldn't be told that underneath

812
00:30:25,350 --> 00:30:22,640
circumstances should they speak about

813
00:30:27,190 --> 00:30:25,360
anything because to be honest the ufo

814
00:30:29,110 --> 00:30:27,200
part of their responsibility which was

815
00:30:31,990 --> 00:30:29,120
tiny it was just something they

816
00:30:33,830 --> 00:30:32,000
inherited yeah a lot of them thought

817
00:30:36,950 --> 00:30:33,840
why on earth are we having to do this

818
00:30:39,029 --> 00:30:36,960
you know um it's not sensitive it never

819
00:30:41,909 --> 00:30:39,039
was sensitive it's not

820
00:30:43,110 --> 00:30:41,919
like you know um ballistic missiles and

821
00:30:45,029 --> 00:30:43,120
they don't want the russians to know

822
00:30:46,149 --> 00:30:45,039
what we know about them et cetera et

823
00:30:48,310 --> 00:30:46,159
cetera it's just that some of these

824
00:30:50,789 --> 00:30:48,320
people who are responsible for ufos they

825
00:30:53,830 --> 00:30:50,799
had extremely sensitive

826
00:30:55,430 --> 00:30:53,840
uh responsibilities in other areas which

827
00:30:57,990 --> 00:30:55,440
quite rightly fall under the official

828
00:30:59,830 --> 00:30:58,000
secrets act and this is the problem with

829
00:31:03,029 --> 00:30:59,840
the guy who did the condone study ron

830
00:31:04,389 --> 00:31:03,039
haddo that undoubtedly he's been told

831
00:31:08,789 --> 00:31:04,399
don't speak

832
00:31:11,830 --> 00:31:08,799
clark you know because

833
00:31:14,310 --> 00:31:11,840
the internet but um i have spoken to

834
00:31:17,750 --> 00:31:14,320
some of the people who work with him

835
00:31:19,830 --> 00:31:17,760
and some of his um successors um and

836
00:31:22,149 --> 00:31:19,840
this guy as you can see the reason i

837
00:31:24,630 --> 00:31:22,159
brought this one up this is a signal

838
00:31:26,470 --> 00:31:24,640
which is like almost like a teletype you

839
00:31:28,549 --> 00:31:26,480
know long before there was twitter and

840
00:31:30,149 --> 00:31:28,559
social media they used to different

841
00:31:31,909 --> 00:31:30,159
intelligence agencies in different

842
00:31:34,230 --> 00:31:31,919
countries would communicate with each

843
00:31:35,509 --> 00:31:34,240
other by these teletypes which is which

844
00:31:37,909 --> 00:31:35,519
you've probably seen

845
00:31:39,590 --> 00:31:37,919
you know in some of these 1970s tv shows

846
00:31:41,430 --> 00:31:39,600
where they've got these huge computers

847
00:31:43,669 --> 00:31:41,440
they're churning out all these

848
00:31:44,710 --> 00:31:43,679
printer pages that are stacking up on

849
00:31:48,070 --> 00:31:44,720
the floor

850
00:31:49,750 --> 00:31:48,080
so late 1978 there was this flap of

851
00:31:52,230 --> 00:31:49,760
sightings in new zealand

852
00:31:53,909 --> 00:31:52,240
quite often it is they show a little

853
00:31:56,549 --> 00:31:53,919
segment about it

854
00:31:58,870 --> 00:31:56,559
um in ufo documentaries and again i

855
00:32:01,669 --> 00:31:58,880
distinctly remember how old would i have

856
00:32:04,230 --> 00:32:01,679
been then probably about 15 or 16

857
00:32:05,190 --> 00:32:04,240
um new year's eve

858
00:32:08,070 --> 00:32:05,200
and

859
00:32:11,190 --> 00:32:08,080
you know we never get serious news

860
00:32:12,950 --> 00:32:11,200
coverage of ufo sightings in this niche

861
00:32:16,630 --> 00:32:12,960
i mean the the i mean the front page of

862
00:32:18,310 --> 00:32:16,640
the daily star which i put on twitter no

863
00:32:20,630 --> 00:32:18,320
nonsense about people

864
00:32:23,590 --> 00:32:20,640
outside public houses see more likely to

865
00:32:25,830 --> 00:32:23,600
see ufos i mean that's what

866
00:32:27,750 --> 00:32:25,840
depths of

867
00:32:29,269 --> 00:32:27,760
journalism has fallen to so-called

868
00:32:31,350 --> 00:32:29,279
journalism now but i mean back in the

869
00:32:34,470 --> 00:32:31,360
70s it did get

870
00:32:38,310 --> 00:32:34,480
serious coverage and i remember the um

871
00:32:41,750 --> 00:32:38,320
top news item on new year's eve 1978 was

872
00:32:44,470 --> 00:32:41,760
ufos have been filmed circling a argosy

873
00:32:46,310 --> 00:32:44,480
freighter aircraft flying between north

874
00:32:48,389 --> 00:32:46,320
island and south island in new zealand

875
00:32:50,549 --> 00:32:48,399
and they've been seen on radar

876
00:32:53,110 --> 00:32:50,559
some spectacular footage some of which

877
00:32:55,509 --> 00:32:53,120
has never been fully explained and

878
00:32:56,870 --> 00:32:55,519
basically it caused a huge panic in this

879
00:32:58,070 --> 00:32:56,880
country you know on the other side of

880
00:32:59,750 --> 00:32:58,080
the world there were questions in

881
00:33:02,710 --> 00:32:59,760
parliament this was just before there

882
00:33:05,269 --> 00:33:02,720
was a full day's debate in the house of

883
00:33:07,590 --> 00:33:05,279
lords believe it or not a whole day

884
00:33:12,230 --> 00:33:07,600
dedicated to ufos in the house of lords

885
00:33:15,190 --> 00:33:12,240
perhaps oh yeah early january 1979 and

886
00:33:18,470 --> 00:33:15,200
the guy who was in charge of di55 he was

887
00:33:22,149 --> 00:33:18,480
um very very busy shall we say advising

888
00:33:23,190 --> 00:33:22,159
his opposite number in um the ufo desk

889
00:33:25,430 --> 00:33:23,200
um

890
00:33:27,190 --> 00:33:25,440
about what on earth should we say so he

891
00:33:29,269 --> 00:33:27,200
was firing out these teletypes to

892
00:33:31,029 --> 00:33:29,279
different parts of the world and he it

893
00:33:32,789 --> 00:33:31,039
sent this to his opposite number in

894
00:33:34,710 --> 00:33:32,799
wellington new zealand

895
00:33:37,590 --> 00:33:34,720
as you can see restricted

896
00:33:42,149 --> 00:33:37,600
um january 1979 and he's basically

897
00:33:45,269 --> 00:33:42,159
saying hello new zealand this is um

898
00:33:47,110 --> 00:33:45,279
adi di 55 so that's assistant director

899
00:33:49,430 --> 00:33:47,120
of intelligence defense intelligence

900
00:33:52,070 --> 00:33:49,440
stuff 55 branch 55

901
00:33:56,310 --> 00:33:52,080
subject recent ufo sightings in new

902
00:34:00,310 --> 00:33:56,320
zealand within mod uk di 55 is

903
00:34:02,789 --> 00:34:00,320
responsible for investigating ufos

904
00:34:04,710 --> 00:34:02,799
there we go folks it's not

905
00:34:07,269 --> 00:34:04,720
the ufo desk it's telling that sending

906
00:34:09,669 --> 00:34:07,279
the tele type to new zealand it's the

907
00:34:11,750 --> 00:34:09,679
i-55 so basically saying

908
00:34:13,829 --> 00:34:11,760
um is there anything in these sightings

909
00:34:15,270 --> 00:34:13,839
can you tell us urgently because we

910
00:34:17,109 --> 00:34:15,280
we've got this debate in the house of

911
00:34:18,230 --> 00:34:17,119
lords coming up and we need to know what

912
00:34:21,589 --> 00:34:18,240
to say

913
00:34:24,550 --> 00:34:21,599
basically so um so again that just

914
00:34:27,109 --> 00:34:24,560
underlines late 1970s again the

915
00:34:29,430 --> 00:34:27,119
investigations the actual proper

916
00:34:33,909 --> 00:34:29,440
inquiries not just the fobbing off you

917
00:34:36,869 --> 00:34:33,919
know the stonewall that was what um did

918
00:34:38,869 --> 00:34:36,879
behind us behind the scenes the i-55

919
00:34:41,669 --> 00:34:38,879
were they were the people who were doing

920
00:34:45,190 --> 00:34:41,679
the the actual um ground work you know

921
00:34:46,389 --> 00:34:45,200
the shoe leather i would call it

922
00:34:47,510 --> 00:34:46,399
i just wanted to bring that one up

923
00:34:49,349 --> 00:34:47,520
because again

924
00:34:51,990 --> 00:34:49,359
there it is in black and white

925
00:34:53,510 --> 00:34:52,000
absolutely my mum used to say what can't

926
00:34:54,710 --> 00:34:53,520
speak can't lie

927
00:34:56,790 --> 00:34:54,720
although

928
00:34:59,030 --> 00:34:56,800
he interpreted

929
00:35:01,349 --> 00:34:59,040
um and i spoke to

930
00:35:03,829 --> 00:35:01,359
the the author of that spoke to him um

931
00:35:07,109 --> 00:35:03,839
about 10 years ago and he confirmed yeah

932
00:35:09,190 --> 00:35:07,119
i was responsible for ufo investigations

933
00:35:10,710 --> 00:35:09,200
for about four or five years i've spent

934
00:35:12,230 --> 00:35:10,720
a lot of time on it even though it was

935
00:35:15,349 --> 00:35:12,240
only a small percentage of my

936
00:35:16,069 --> 00:35:15,359
responsibility about 20 of my workload

937
00:35:17,990 --> 00:35:16,079
but

938
00:35:19,109 --> 00:35:18,000
he basically said i did all the work on

939
00:35:22,150 --> 00:35:19,119
it and

940
00:35:22,870 --> 00:35:22,160
the guy in in sec s just copied stuff to

941
00:35:24,550 --> 00:35:22,880
me

942
00:35:26,150 --> 00:35:24,560
i was the one in front of the radar

943
00:35:27,990 --> 00:35:26,160
stations i was the one who sent them

944
00:35:31,670 --> 00:35:28,000
tele types i was the one who had access

945
00:35:32,870 --> 00:35:31,680
to top secret information they didn't

946
00:35:35,109 --> 00:35:32,880
so

947
00:35:37,030 --> 00:35:35,119
says it all document and we've got the

948
00:35:39,910 --> 00:35:37,040
testimony from the person who wrote that

949
00:35:42,230 --> 00:35:39,920
document what more do you need

950
00:35:42,829 --> 00:35:42,240
so moving swiftly on what's that what's

951
00:35:44,550 --> 00:35:42,839
the

952
00:35:46,630 --> 00:35:44,560
next

953
00:35:48,069 --> 00:35:46,640
where are we

954
00:35:49,750 --> 00:35:48,079
i'm going to just take a bathroom break

955
00:35:51,829 --> 00:35:49,760
while you jump into this next one i'll

956
00:35:54,550 --> 00:35:51,839
still be able to hear though so

957
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:59,510
my lubricant here the bit of beer

958
00:36:04,550 --> 00:36:01,829
oh yeah this is my

959
00:36:07,270 --> 00:36:04,560
this is my favorite document of all and

960
00:36:08,950 --> 00:36:07,280
i think um vinnie would need to expand

961
00:36:11,430 --> 00:36:08,960
it to actually um

962
00:36:14,950 --> 00:36:11,440
what he will do when he gets back um and

963
00:36:18,790 --> 00:36:14,960
this is a a memo that was um

964
00:36:19,750 --> 00:36:18,800
put together by the um the guy who was

965
00:36:23,030 --> 00:36:19,760
um

966
00:36:25,349 --> 00:36:23,040
the di-55 or di-55c

967
00:36:27,270 --> 00:36:25,359
as he calls himself

968
00:36:29,430 --> 00:36:27,280
know the identity of this

969
00:36:30,950 --> 00:36:29,440
person he was the um the opposite number

970
00:36:32,430 --> 00:36:30,960
to nick pope

971
00:36:36,710 --> 00:36:32,440
um back in

972
00:36:38,310 --> 00:36:36,720
1993-94 um he was um

973
00:36:39,670 --> 00:36:38,320
what should we say a member of the armed

974
00:36:42,150 --> 00:36:39,680
forces i'm not going to say any more

975
00:36:42,790 --> 00:36:42,160
than that i've had some long chats with

976
00:36:45,430 --> 00:36:42,800
him

977
00:36:47,430 --> 00:36:45,440
about this subject and um

978
00:36:49,030 --> 00:36:47,440
again he was the one who said he did the

979
00:36:50,230 --> 00:36:49,040
investigations

980
00:36:52,390 --> 00:36:50,240
and

981
00:36:55,270 --> 00:36:52,400
you might ask what happened to all the

982
00:36:56,870 --> 00:36:55,280
um the their findings what you know all

983
00:36:58,710 --> 00:36:56,880
these years that they've been sort of

984
00:37:00,390 --> 00:36:58,720
investigating this subject and building

985
00:37:02,870 --> 00:37:00,400
up this database

986
00:37:05,510 --> 00:37:02,880
what happened to all that and

987
00:37:07,109 --> 00:37:05,520
we get to the mid-1990s

988
00:37:09,589 --> 00:37:07,119
and there's more and more interest in

989
00:37:12,470 --> 00:37:09,599
the subject and you know the media are

990
00:37:16,150 --> 00:37:12,480
just going mad about ufos we're building

991
00:37:18,870 --> 00:37:16,160
up to the um 50th anniversary of roswell

992
00:37:21,349 --> 00:37:18,880
kenneth arnold sighting um the birth of

993
00:37:23,990 --> 00:37:21,359
ufology there are films like

994
00:37:25,829 --> 00:37:24,000
independence day featuring ufos

995
00:37:27,349 --> 00:37:25,839
featuring roswell

996
00:37:29,670 --> 00:37:27,359
as one of its main themes you've got the

997
00:37:32,069 --> 00:37:29,680
x-files on tv

998
00:37:33,430 --> 00:37:32,079
massive interest mps asking questions in

999
00:37:34,870 --> 00:37:33,440
parliament

1000
00:37:37,190 --> 00:37:34,880
and

1001
00:37:39,190 --> 00:37:37,200
the ufo desk just keeps stone rolling it

1002
00:37:41,109 --> 00:37:39,200
says you know we don't we don't um

1003
00:37:42,790 --> 00:37:41,119
investigate this subject we never have

1004
00:37:44,630 --> 00:37:42,800
investigated it this is what they're

1005
00:37:47,430 --> 00:37:44,640
saying publicly

1006
00:37:50,950 --> 00:37:47,440
um but it behind the scenes

1007
00:37:53,430 --> 00:37:50,960
the i-55 are saying well um

1008
00:37:56,230 --> 00:37:53,440
if it turns out that ufos do exist or

1009
00:37:58,870 --> 00:37:56,240
uaps as they then called them because we

1010
00:37:59,910 --> 00:37:58,880
all talk about uaps now

1011
00:38:03,430 --> 00:37:59,920
but

1012
00:38:06,230 --> 00:38:03,440
to give di-55 their jew they were the

1013
00:38:08,870 --> 00:38:06,240
people who started using uap before

1014
00:38:11,030 --> 00:38:08,880
anyone else even before ufologists so if

1015
00:38:14,230 --> 00:38:11,040
you look into their files they start

1016
00:38:17,430 --> 00:38:14,240
referring to ufos as uaps

1017
00:38:19,670 --> 00:38:17,440
around 1992-93

1018
00:38:22,230 --> 00:38:19,680
and they even get into a battle of words

1019
00:38:24,310 --> 00:38:22,240
with the ufo desk because the ufo desk

1020
00:38:26,230 --> 00:38:24,320
is saying what's this uap thing you keep

1021
00:38:28,069 --> 00:38:26,240
mentioning

1022
00:38:30,069 --> 00:38:28,079
and basically they're saying

1023
00:38:32,630 --> 00:38:30,079
well that's what we prefer to use

1024
00:38:36,150 --> 00:38:32,640
because uap is talking about aerial

1025
00:38:38,710 --> 00:38:36,160
phenomena it's not talking about ufo a

1026
00:38:40,390 --> 00:38:38,720
object because we don't know that these

1027
00:38:42,390 --> 00:38:40,400
things are objects that the solid

1028
00:38:43,829 --> 00:38:42,400
objects there's some kind of

1029
00:38:45,589 --> 00:38:43,839
they they're moving towards this sort of

1030
00:38:46,710 --> 00:38:45,599
thing about them being atmospheric

1031
00:38:48,230 --> 00:38:46,720
plasmas

1032
00:38:50,069 --> 00:38:48,240
right their favorite

1033
00:38:51,910 --> 00:38:50,079
um explanation

1034
00:38:53,670 --> 00:38:51,920
i'm basically saying if these things

1035
00:38:56,150 --> 00:38:53,680
actually do exist let's say there's some

1036
00:38:58,069 --> 00:38:56,160
big incident where maybe an aircraft is

1037
00:38:59,750 --> 00:38:58,079
brought down from the sky collides with

1038
00:39:00,870 --> 00:38:59,760
one of these things

1039
00:39:02,390 --> 00:39:00,880
naturally

1040
00:39:05,030 --> 00:39:02,400
um we're going to be in the spotlight

1041
00:39:06,790 --> 00:39:05,040
because uh the government and the public

1042
00:39:08,230 --> 00:39:06,800
and the media are going to say

1043
00:39:09,910 --> 00:39:08,240
you you

1044
00:39:12,069 --> 00:39:09,920
you say you've been monitoring this

1045
00:39:13,109 --> 00:39:12,079
subject there's nothing to worry about

1046
00:39:16,630 --> 00:39:13,119
you know

1047
00:39:18,470 --> 00:39:16,640
why why didn't you why weren't you aware

1048
00:39:20,150 --> 00:39:18,480
of this so they're saying we're in a

1049
00:39:22,550 --> 00:39:20,160
really tricky position here because some

1050
00:39:24,550 --> 00:39:22,560
of these things do appear to have some

1051
00:39:26,310 --> 00:39:24,560
solid evidence you know that they talk

1052
00:39:27,990 --> 00:39:26,320
about the rendlesham incident

1053
00:39:29,349 --> 00:39:28,000
they talk about some others that are

1054
00:39:31,750 --> 00:39:29,359
less well-known

1055
00:39:32,950 --> 00:39:31,760
we need to do a study so all through the

1056
00:39:35,589 --> 00:39:32,960
90s

1057
00:39:37,829 --> 00:39:35,599
this chapter di55c

1058
00:39:39,829 --> 00:39:37,839
is piling pressure on his manager the

1059
00:39:40,710 --> 00:39:39,839
head of the defense intelligence staff

1060
00:39:43,510 --> 00:39:40,720
saying

1061
00:39:45,670 --> 00:39:43,520
for god's sake let's spend some money on

1062
00:39:48,790 --> 00:39:45,680
this i know you're telling the public

1063
00:39:50,870 --> 00:39:48,800
we're not studying it and it's bad pr if

1064
00:39:52,150 --> 00:39:50,880
it turns out that we are because it's

1065
00:39:55,589 --> 00:39:52,160
gonna

1066
00:39:56,870 --> 00:39:55,599
attention but we've got to do something

1067
00:39:59,430 --> 00:39:56,880
so

1068
00:40:00,950 --> 00:39:59,440
um all through the 90s he was

1069
00:40:02,630 --> 00:40:00,960
making like what you would call a

1070
00:40:04,790 --> 00:40:02,640
business case

1071
00:40:07,430 --> 00:40:04,800
all we want to do this guy was saying is

1072
00:40:09,589 --> 00:40:07,440
let's set up a basic computer program

1073
00:40:11,750 --> 00:40:09,599
where we can start inputting some of

1074
00:40:14,470 --> 00:40:11,760
these thousands and thousands

1075
00:40:17,030 --> 00:40:14,480
of reports that we've had come in during

1076
00:40:17,670 --> 00:40:17,040
the 1970s and 1980s

1077
00:40:21,829 --> 00:40:17,680
and

1078
00:40:23,349 --> 00:40:21,839
actually became of this in the condyne

1079
00:40:26,069 --> 00:40:23,359
report it's

1080
00:40:29,750 --> 00:40:26,079
it's to put it to the the only word you

1081
00:40:35,190 --> 00:40:32,470
basically i mean i've i've set i've got

1082
00:40:37,910 --> 00:40:35,200
students doing visitations at university

1083
00:40:40,230 --> 00:40:37,920
who've done a better job than they did

1084
00:40:42,550 --> 00:40:40,240
and they managed to squeeze 30 000

1085
00:40:44,309 --> 00:40:42,560
pounds out of um

1086
00:40:46,390 --> 00:40:44,319
the chief of defense intelligence for

1087
00:40:47,910 --> 00:40:46,400
this study and they gave it to this

1088
00:40:50,550 --> 00:40:47,920
contractor

1089
00:40:54,550 --> 00:40:50,560
um well let's let's say it is it's ron

1090
00:40:57,109 --> 00:40:54,560
hader who who basically was the mods ufo

1091
00:40:58,550 --> 00:40:57,119
expert and now he he'd been interested

1092
00:41:01,750 --> 00:40:58,560
in the subject on and off since the

1093
00:41:04,150 --> 00:41:01,760
1950s he worked in di-55

1094
00:41:05,190 --> 00:41:04,160
his expertise was radar now this is ron

1095
00:41:07,750 --> 00:41:05,200
haddow

1096
00:41:08,550 --> 00:41:07,760
um now in his eighties

1097
00:41:11,510 --> 00:41:08,560
um

1098
00:41:14,470 --> 00:41:11,520
he'd had a sighting of his own whilst he

1099
00:41:16,470 --> 00:41:14,480
was flying a canberra jet um in his top

1100
00:41:18,950 --> 00:41:16,480
secret mission over the soviet union in

1101
00:41:21,030 --> 00:41:18,960
the 1950s and he'd reported it

1102
00:41:23,910 --> 00:41:21,040
to the air ministry at that time in the

1103
00:41:25,910 --> 00:41:23,920
1950s that is all we know because he has

1104
00:41:27,750 --> 00:41:25,920
never spoken about this he just

1105
00:41:29,109 --> 00:41:27,760
mentioned it in one of his

1106
00:41:31,030 --> 00:41:29,119
memos

1107
00:41:32,390 --> 00:41:31,040
um and he was obviously whenever there

1108
00:41:34,470 --> 00:41:32,400
was a

1109
00:41:36,630 --> 00:41:34,480
a ufo um

1110
00:41:38,550 --> 00:41:36,640
that defied explanation he was the

1111
00:41:40,630 --> 00:41:38,560
person they went to

1112
00:41:43,270 --> 00:41:40,640
um and i think he must have known rv

1113
00:41:45,829 --> 00:41:43,280
jones um you know the famous wartime

1114
00:41:48,630 --> 00:41:45,839
expert that churchill used to turn to

1115
00:41:50,390 --> 00:41:48,640
for advice yeah yeah he was interested

1116
00:41:51,589 --> 00:41:50,400
in ufos as well they all knew each other

1117
00:41:53,109 --> 00:41:51,599
these people

1118
00:41:57,430 --> 00:41:53,119
i'd be interested to know if ron

1119
00:42:00,309 --> 00:41:57,440
haddow's sighting was more foo fighter

1120
00:42:03,030 --> 00:42:00,319
or if it was more kenneth arnold disc

1121
00:42:04,390 --> 00:42:03,040
roswelly kind of solid object that's

1122
00:42:06,630 --> 00:42:04,400
fascinating but like you said it's

1123
00:42:08,309 --> 00:42:06,640
fascinating

1124
00:42:10,550 --> 00:42:08,319
how frustrating we are never going to

1125
00:42:13,109 --> 00:42:10,560
know the details of that because it

1126
00:42:15,030 --> 00:42:13,119
obviously was in the 1950s and all those

1127
00:42:16,550 --> 00:42:15,040
documents have been destroyed

1128
00:42:17,750 --> 00:42:16,560
and

1129
00:42:21,430 --> 00:42:17,760
the reason

1130
00:42:24,069 --> 00:42:21,440
those documents have been destroyed is

1131
00:42:25,750 --> 00:42:24,079
in the files themselves when ron hader

1132
00:42:27,829 --> 00:42:25,760
was given the contract

1133
00:42:31,109 --> 00:42:27,839
to write the con the condy report

1134
00:42:34,150 --> 00:42:31,119
basically he had um

1135
00:42:36,309 --> 00:42:34,160
he had sort of um access to all the

1136
00:42:38,470 --> 00:42:36,319
surviving top secret

1137
00:42:41,109 --> 00:42:38,480
files on ufos that were stored at that

1138
00:42:42,870 --> 00:42:41,119
time in the bowels of the defense

1139
00:42:43,750 --> 00:42:42,880
intelligence building northumberland

1140
00:42:46,550 --> 00:42:43,760
road

1141
00:42:48,069 --> 00:42:46,560
in central london and he writes about it

1142
00:42:51,030 --> 00:42:48,079
in the background material to the

1143
00:42:53,270 --> 00:42:51,040
condone report he says i went looking

1144
00:42:54,870 --> 00:42:53,280
for these early files

1145
00:42:57,589 --> 00:42:54,880
and he spent ages

1146
00:42:59,750 --> 00:42:57,599
coming through filing cabinets and try

1147
00:43:01,910 --> 00:42:59,760
presumably trying to find his is his own

1148
00:43:05,750 --> 00:43:01,920
report from the 1950s

1149
00:43:07,990 --> 00:43:05,760
and somewhat at some point in the 1980s

1150
00:43:10,230 --> 00:43:08,000
and for reasons known only to themselves

1151
00:43:11,589 --> 00:43:10,240
decided why are we keeping all these ufo

1152
00:43:13,030 --> 00:43:11,599
reports let's just

1153
00:43:14,870 --> 00:43:13,040
burn them

1154
00:43:16,470 --> 00:43:14,880
and so they destroyed everything so

1155
00:43:18,309 --> 00:43:16,480
there was nothing when he actually got

1156
00:43:20,230 --> 00:43:18,319
into to see the top secret files the

1157
00:43:22,390 --> 00:43:20,240
earliest ones he could find

1158
00:43:25,109 --> 00:43:22,400
were there was a few that had survived

1159
00:43:27,109 --> 00:43:25,119
from the mid-1970s

1160
00:43:30,470 --> 00:43:27,119
nothing else so that the actual file

1161
00:43:32,390 --> 00:43:30,480
sequence starts up so mid 1980s so when

1162
00:43:34,950 --> 00:43:32,400
he started inputting

1163
00:43:38,550 --> 00:43:34,960
um these this material into his excel

1164
00:43:41,510 --> 00:43:38,560
spreadsheet he basically starts in 1987

1165
00:43:44,470 --> 00:43:41,520
so he does like a 10-year run from 1987

1166
00:43:46,710 --> 00:43:44,480
to 1997 because everything before that

1167
00:43:47,910 --> 00:43:46,720
he couldn't find he's gone someone's

1168
00:43:49,510 --> 00:43:47,920
destroyed it

1169
00:43:51,510 --> 00:43:49,520
and he had

1170
00:43:53,190 --> 00:43:51,520
access that no one else is going to have

1171
00:43:55,190 --> 00:43:53,200
he had basically a free reign to go and

1172
00:43:57,990 --> 00:43:55,200
look through all the top secret material

1173
00:43:59,829 --> 00:43:58,000
so all those really evidential cases

1174
00:44:02,230 --> 00:43:59,839
that might have actually

1175
00:44:03,750 --> 00:44:02,240
if he had access to that stuff he might

1176
00:44:05,589 --> 00:44:03,760
have written a much better report you

1177
00:44:07,829 --> 00:44:05,599
know the top cliff sighting

1178
00:44:10,710 --> 00:44:07,839
the lake and heath bent waters um

1179
00:44:11,670 --> 00:44:10,720
sightings from the 1950s um the rendle

1180
00:44:13,349 --> 00:44:11,680
should whatever there was on

1181
00:44:15,030 --> 00:44:13,359
randallstrom he had

1182
00:44:17,270 --> 00:44:15,040
all he ever saw

1183
00:44:19,030 --> 00:44:17,280
was colonel holt's memo which doesn't

1184
00:44:20,870 --> 00:44:19,040
really tell the story does it that

1185
00:44:22,710 --> 00:44:20,880
that's all he saw

1186
00:44:25,270 --> 00:44:22,720
yeah so

1187
00:44:28,069 --> 00:44:25,280
he could only he could only um

1188
00:44:30,309 --> 00:44:28,079
work on what was available because he

1189
00:44:32,390 --> 00:44:30,319
was working in this secret squirrel

1190
00:44:34,950 --> 00:44:32,400
organization he wasn't allowed to talk

1191
00:44:36,710 --> 00:44:34,960
to anyone outside the mod

1192
00:44:38,230 --> 00:44:36,720
wasn't allowed to talk to ufologists

1193
00:44:40,390 --> 00:44:38,240
wasn't allowed to go and interview

1194
00:44:42,550 --> 00:44:40,400
witnesses and he was basically told go

1195
00:44:43,750 --> 00:44:42,560
off and write a report and he has 30 000

1196
00:44:46,870 --> 00:44:43,760
pounds

1197
00:44:49,670 --> 00:44:48,230
you just mentioned a few years there

1198
00:44:52,150 --> 00:44:49,680
that ringing bells for me because i've

1199
00:44:55,270 --> 00:44:52,160
just been i just wrote an article about

1200
00:44:57,270 --> 00:44:55,280
the 1955 bexley heath case are you

1201
00:44:59,030 --> 00:44:57,280
familiar with that one i'm not actually

1202
00:44:59,829 --> 00:44:59,040
no okay that's all i wasn't sure if

1203
00:45:01,190 --> 00:44:59,839
there was something off the top of your

1204
00:45:01,990 --> 00:45:01,200
head you were like oh yeah i know that

1205
00:45:03,750 --> 00:45:02,000
and

1206
00:45:05,910 --> 00:45:03,760
because i struggled to find much data or

1207
00:45:07,829 --> 00:45:05,920
information on it that sort of you own

1208
00:45:09,190 --> 00:45:07,839
because what you find in the files and

1209
00:45:11,030 --> 00:45:09,200
you've probably seen this spinning is

1210
00:45:13,589 --> 00:45:11,040
there is letter after letter after

1211
00:45:16,550 --> 00:45:13,599
letter from people saying some of them

1212
00:45:18,230 --> 00:45:16,560
ex-military saying i saw a flying saucer

1213
00:45:20,710 --> 00:45:18,240
when i was stationed i don't know in

1214
00:45:22,470 --> 00:45:20,720
hong kong in 1952

1215
00:45:24,550 --> 00:45:22,480
and i made an official report to the air

1216
00:45:27,829 --> 00:45:24,560
ministry about it have you got it and

1217
00:45:29,829 --> 00:45:27,839
the response is sorry no

1218
00:45:31,109 --> 00:45:29,839
i saw a lot of that yeah i thought about

1219
00:45:32,470 --> 00:45:31,119
that and it's funny i'll just say this

1220
00:45:34,069 --> 00:45:32,480
right now to everyone watching and

1221
00:45:35,990 --> 00:45:34,079
listening is when we were there we

1222
00:45:38,150 --> 00:45:36,000
actually find little slips with david's

1223
00:45:40,150 --> 00:45:38,160
name in in the files as well because

1224
00:45:41,829 --> 00:45:40,160
he'd obviously been through them so many

1225
00:45:43,670 --> 00:45:41,839
times and that they'd just been left in

1226
00:45:46,470 --> 00:45:43,680
there

1227
00:45:48,870 --> 00:45:46,480
i thought that was brilliant

1228
00:45:52,230 --> 00:45:48,880
when i get um into something and i got

1229
00:45:54,230 --> 00:45:52,240
really into pursuing this di-55 lead i

1230
00:45:56,069 --> 00:45:54,240
i'm like a dog with a boon and

1231
00:45:57,750 --> 00:45:56,079
yeah and you find in some of the later

1232
00:45:58,829 --> 00:45:57,760
things it's like oh my god it's him

1233
00:46:00,950 --> 00:45:58,839
again you

1234
00:46:02,870 --> 00:46:00,960
know leave us alone sort of thing and i

1235
00:46:04,470 --> 00:46:02,880
just thought well no well you you are

1236
00:46:07,349 --> 00:46:04,480
but you're being paid

1237
00:46:08,950 --> 00:46:07,359
to do this job you know and

1238
00:46:10,630 --> 00:46:08,960
you can't get away from the fact that we

1239
00:46:12,470 --> 00:46:10,640
now have freedom of information although

1240
00:46:14,710 --> 00:46:12,480
they've now taken freedom effectively

1241
00:46:16,150 --> 00:46:14,720
killed off freedom of information i had

1242
00:46:19,430 --> 00:46:16,160
this little

1243
00:46:22,069 --> 00:46:19,440
window of opportunity from about 1999 to

1244
00:46:23,670 --> 00:46:22,079
about 2006 when the drawbridge was

1245
00:46:25,910 --> 00:46:23,680
pulled up pulled down

1246
00:46:29,750 --> 00:46:25,920
you know where you could actually ask

1247
00:46:31,589 --> 00:46:29,760
them for things be and be very specific

1248
00:46:33,589 --> 00:46:31,599
what files have you got on this subject

1249
00:46:35,430 --> 00:46:33,599
and they would actually go and look and

1250
00:46:37,349 --> 00:46:35,440
and if they found something they'd copy

1251
00:46:38,390 --> 00:46:37,359
it and and you'd get it within a few

1252
00:46:40,470 --> 00:46:38,400
days

1253
00:46:43,430 --> 00:46:40,480
you know as anyone who's tried to use

1254
00:46:47,030 --> 00:46:43,440
foi to to get information on ufos today

1255
00:46:50,069 --> 00:46:47,040
we'll know that era has come to an end

1256
00:46:53,190 --> 00:46:50,079
and there was a period in um

1257
00:46:56,390 --> 00:46:53,200
from about 2000 to about 2006

1258
00:46:59,109 --> 00:46:56,400
where i was virtually almost like daily

1259
00:47:00,790 --> 00:46:59,119
contact with the person who ran the ufo

1260
00:47:02,870 --> 00:47:00,800
desk at that point and

1261
00:47:04,950 --> 00:47:02,880
linda unwin she was called

1262
00:47:07,109 --> 00:47:04,960
and she she had

1263
00:47:10,230 --> 00:47:07,119
basically um she was the freedom of

1264
00:47:11,349 --> 00:47:10,240
information officer about 50 of her time

1265
00:47:13,430 --> 00:47:11,359
was spent

1266
00:47:14,710 --> 00:47:13,440
dealing with inquiries about ufos so i

1267
00:47:16,710 --> 00:47:14,720
spoke to him

1268
00:47:18,470 --> 00:47:16,720
i was invited down to the ministry of

1269
00:47:21,030 --> 00:47:18,480
defense in london

1270
00:47:23,910 --> 00:47:21,040
on two occasions uh to meet her and her

1271
00:47:25,270 --> 00:47:23,920
boss rob lingam who was sort of like the

1272
00:47:27,670 --> 00:47:25,280
head of that

1273
00:47:29,990 --> 00:47:27,680
department spent about two hours there

1274
00:47:32,150 --> 00:47:30,000
asking them talking to them so i saw the

1275
00:47:33,430 --> 00:47:32,160
ufo desk it just looked like an ordinary

1276
00:47:35,910 --> 00:47:33,440
desk

1277
00:47:37,829 --> 00:47:35,920
there was no um i think at one point i

1278
00:47:40,630 --> 00:47:37,839
said where's the dead aliens and where

1279
00:47:44,630 --> 00:47:43,109
you know they answered all my questions

1280
00:47:47,109 --> 00:47:44,640
um

1281
00:47:48,309 --> 00:47:47,119
in a honest straightforward way i don't

1282
00:47:50,150 --> 00:47:48,319
think they were hiding anything because

1283
00:47:51,670 --> 00:47:50,160
i don't think they knew anything more

1284
00:47:53,910 --> 00:47:51,680
than what they knew

1285
00:47:55,910 --> 00:47:53,920
and and then i sort of having done all

1286
00:47:58,710 --> 00:47:55,920
this research

1287
00:48:01,030 --> 00:47:58,720
and i'd basically come across

1288
00:48:02,790 --> 00:48:01,040
a reference to a study that had been

1289
00:48:05,270 --> 00:48:02,800
done by the defense intelligence staff

1290
00:48:06,790 --> 00:48:05,280
which we now know to be the condyle

1291
00:48:09,349 --> 00:48:06,800
um report

1292
00:48:12,309 --> 00:48:09,359
and i waited until the first of january

1293
00:48:14,470 --> 00:48:12,319
2005 which was the day that freedom of

1294
00:48:16,950 --> 00:48:14,480
information arrived and i wrote straight

1295
00:48:17,750 --> 00:48:16,960
away i did warner i said you're going to

1296
00:48:20,630 --> 00:48:17,760
get

1297
00:48:22,309 --> 00:48:20,640
me and me first and i said right you

1298
00:48:24,549 --> 00:48:22,319
know i knew

1299
00:48:25,510 --> 00:48:24,559
that defense intelligence staff did a

1300
00:48:29,589 --> 00:48:25,520
study

1301
00:48:31,190 --> 00:48:29,599
of this um subject towards the end of

1302
00:48:33,349 --> 00:48:31,200
the 1990s

1303
00:48:35,270 --> 00:48:33,359
um let's i'd like to see a copy of it

1304
00:48:37,910 --> 00:48:35,280
please and i could it was almost like

1305
00:48:39,910 --> 00:48:37,920
you could hear the sort of

1306
00:48:42,870 --> 00:48:39,920
we know he's gonna ask for this

1307
00:48:44,870 --> 00:48:42,880
and um they went off and they they

1308
00:48:47,190 --> 00:48:44,880
discovered to their own surprise that

1309
00:48:50,230 --> 00:48:47,200
this study had actually been

1310
00:48:52,390 --> 00:48:50,240
done without them being told

1311
00:48:54,950 --> 00:48:52,400
and this is the thing that stunned me

1312
00:48:57,030 --> 00:48:54,960
because here we are this so-called ufo

1313
00:48:58,549 --> 00:48:57,040
desk that's supposedly the the focal

1314
00:49:00,710 --> 00:48:58,559
point of all

1315
00:49:03,510 --> 00:49:00,720
public inquiries on the subject they

1316
00:49:06,630 --> 00:49:03,520
didn't know anything about the fact that

1317
00:49:08,150 --> 00:49:06,640
defense intelligence staff di-55 ads

1318
00:49:10,549 --> 00:49:08,160
have been given

1319
00:49:13,750 --> 00:49:10,559
30 to 50 000 pounds of public money that

1320
00:49:15,670 --> 00:49:13,760
created this huge computer database uh

1321
00:49:17,430 --> 00:49:15,680
they'd spend this guide spent about five

1322
00:49:20,069 --> 00:49:17,440
years going through all this material

1323
00:49:22,150 --> 00:49:20,079
produced this enormous report

1324
00:49:23,030 --> 00:49:22,160
copy of which i have here

1325
00:49:26,390 --> 00:49:23,040
and

1326
00:49:29,190 --> 00:49:26,400
after about six months um of oh my god

1327
00:49:30,790 --> 00:49:29,200
what we're going to say to him um

1328
00:49:33,910 --> 00:49:30,800
saying well would you like to come down

1329
00:49:36,309 --> 00:49:33,920
to london to collect a copy of it well i

1330
00:49:38,630 --> 00:49:36,319
was sort of you are pulling my leg and

1331
00:49:40,230 --> 00:49:38,640
it was like no no don't come down um you

1332
00:49:42,069 --> 00:49:40,240
know we'll have to sort of

1333
00:49:43,510 --> 00:49:42,079
vet you and you'll have to go through

1334
00:49:45,270 --> 00:49:43,520
all these security checks and what have

1335
00:49:46,710 --> 00:49:45,280
you so i just racked up on trafalgar

1336
00:49:47,990 --> 00:49:46,720
square one morning

1337
00:49:52,950 --> 00:49:48,000
um

1338
00:49:54,549 --> 00:49:52,960
across his name he was an active ufo

1339
00:49:55,430 --> 00:49:54,559
researcher at the time he came down with

1340
00:49:58,790 --> 00:49:55,440
me

1341
00:50:00,950 --> 00:49:58,800
um we got in um and basically i was

1342
00:50:04,150 --> 00:50:00,960
presented with a brown envelope

1343
00:50:06,790 --> 00:50:04,160
containing the condyme studded and

1344
00:50:08,470 --> 00:50:06,800
honestly i i took this out and sat in a

1345
00:50:11,030 --> 00:50:08,480
coffee shop it must have been for about

1346
00:50:13,750 --> 00:50:11,040
five hours going through it

1347
00:50:15,990 --> 00:50:13,760
i i just could not believe my eyes that

1348
00:50:18,150 --> 00:50:16,000
here it was you know the the holy grail

1349
00:50:19,829 --> 00:50:18,160
and i've got to say i mean we did a

1350
00:50:22,589 --> 00:50:19,839
press conference there was a massive

1351
00:50:25,190 --> 00:50:22,599
media coverage and ufology was

1352
00:50:26,390 --> 00:50:25,200
absolutely hostile

1353
00:50:28,230 --> 00:50:26,400
you know it was

1354
00:50:30,230 --> 00:50:28,240
you know how why have they given this to

1355
00:50:32,309 --> 00:50:30,240
him is it some kind of

1356
00:50:35,430 --> 00:50:32,319
you know is he really working for them

1357
00:50:37,910 --> 00:50:35,440
you know is it a huge whitewash and

1358
00:50:39,270 --> 00:50:37,920
right now all of a sudden condone study

1359
00:50:41,190 --> 00:50:39,280
it's like everybody wants to know about

1360
00:50:43,829 --> 00:50:41,200
it it's wonderful you know this that and

1361
00:50:46,390 --> 00:50:43,839
the other but at the time in 2006 all i

1362
00:50:48,549 --> 00:50:46,400
got was just hostile reaction from

1363
00:50:50,630 --> 00:50:48,559
ufologists and it was

1364
00:50:53,109 --> 00:50:50,640
simply because the report doesn't say

1365
00:50:54,790 --> 00:50:53,119
yes ufos exist and they are aliens

1366
00:50:57,829 --> 00:50:54,800
basically that's that's all people

1367
00:50:59,109 --> 00:50:57,839
wanted to yeah yeah oh

1368
00:50:59,990 --> 00:50:59,119
to me

1369
00:51:00,950 --> 00:51:00,000
that

1370
00:51:02,630 --> 00:51:00,960
whatever you think about the

1371
00:51:04,790 --> 00:51:02,640
extraterrestrial thing

1372
00:51:07,510 --> 00:51:04,800
what was important to me is the report

1373
00:51:09,349 --> 00:51:07,520
says ufos exist there's no doubt about

1374
00:51:11,990 --> 00:51:09,359
it and we don't know what they are

1375
00:51:14,870 --> 00:51:12,000
surely that at the time i was saying

1376
00:51:16,790 --> 00:51:14,880
isn't that interesting

1377
00:51:18,309 --> 00:51:16,800
absolutely i mean and let's let's be

1378
00:51:20,069 --> 00:51:18,319
clear that there's very

1379
00:51:23,109 --> 00:51:20,079
there's not many copies of that

1380
00:51:24,950 --> 00:51:23,119
is there no is it physical copies

1381
00:51:27,349 --> 00:51:24,960
no i mean you can download it i think

1382
00:51:29,349 --> 00:51:27,359
online i think they've although it's not

1383
00:51:30,950 --> 00:51:29,359
on the mods website i think there's

1384
00:51:32,950 --> 00:51:30,960
there's a link which if anybody i'll

1385
00:51:34,549 --> 00:51:32,960
actually i'll pop it in i'll pop it in

1386
00:51:37,349 --> 00:51:34,559
the live chat right now i've got it

1387
00:51:38,790 --> 00:51:37,359
lined up it's the national archives page

1388
00:51:41,270 --> 00:51:38,800
the national archives sort of like

1389
00:51:42,309 --> 00:51:41,280
create sort of like um they like to try

1390
00:51:44,150 --> 00:51:42,319
and keep

1391
00:51:47,670 --> 00:51:44,160
things that have been placed online that

1392
00:51:49,109 --> 00:51:47,680
have since been removed they've got like

1393
00:51:52,710 --> 00:51:49,119
things so you can download the whole

1394
00:51:55,829 --> 00:51:52,720
thing but as far as i'm aware i possess

1395
00:51:57,030 --> 00:51:55,839
only one of two actual copies of it of

1396
00:51:59,349 --> 00:51:57,040
the report

1397
00:52:01,510 --> 00:51:59,359
and it's it's enormous i mean but volume

1398
00:52:02,950 --> 00:52:01,520
two is just

1399
00:52:05,829 --> 00:52:02,960
you know you could use this as a

1400
00:52:11,510 --> 00:52:09,589
this is the one that contains all the um

1401
00:52:13,030 --> 00:52:11,520
like scientific

1402
00:52:15,109 --> 00:52:13,040
um

1403
00:52:17,750 --> 00:52:15,119
like papers on different scientific

1404
00:52:18,950 --> 00:52:17,760
subjects that ron haddo thought had

1405
00:52:21,430 --> 00:52:18,960
relevance

1406
00:52:23,829 --> 00:52:21,440
to um uap so i've just put little

1407
00:52:25,349 --> 00:52:23,839
stickies in here for ease of reference

1408
00:52:27,829 --> 00:52:25,359
and so there's like one section that

1409
00:52:30,470 --> 00:52:27,839
talks about the rendlesham incident

1410
00:52:32,150 --> 00:52:30,480
plasma effects on humans

1411
00:52:34,710 --> 00:52:32,160
and there's a whole section on radar

1412
00:52:36,870 --> 00:52:34,720
which was his speciality i mean he's the

1413
00:52:39,190 --> 00:52:36,880
interesting thing about ron hadou is

1414
00:52:41,510 --> 00:52:39,200
um his doctor ron hadou and i looked

1415
00:52:44,309 --> 00:52:41,520
into what his phd

1416
00:52:46,150 --> 00:52:44,319
um was what subject it was on i actually

1417
00:52:47,510 --> 00:52:46,160
downloaded a copy of his phd the other

1418
00:52:51,430 --> 00:52:47,520
day and had a good read through it and

1419
00:52:54,870 --> 00:52:51,440
it was about how um radar can detect

1420
00:52:58,630 --> 00:52:54,880
unidentified objects flying at low level

1421
00:53:00,630 --> 00:52:58,640
um over inland outside radar coverage

1422
00:53:03,670 --> 00:53:00,640
and he he did that for the university of

1423
00:53:04,710 --> 00:53:03,680
loughborough as a phd in the 1980s so

1424
00:53:06,710 --> 00:53:04,720
again

1425
00:53:08,950 --> 00:53:06,720
isn't it an interesting coincidence that

1426
00:53:12,950 --> 00:53:08,960
the man who wrote this report

1427
00:53:14,710 --> 00:53:12,960
was writing his phd on how the military

1428
00:53:17,750 --> 00:53:14,720
can detect unlike effectively

1429
00:53:20,309 --> 00:53:17,760
unidentified flying objects on radar

1430
00:53:22,790 --> 00:53:20,319
so he talks about that

1431
00:53:24,309 --> 00:53:22,800
in this volume too he talks about exotic

1432
00:53:27,109 --> 00:53:24,319
technology

1433
00:53:30,309 --> 00:53:27,119
he talks about um

1434
00:53:32,870 --> 00:53:30,319
the section i love this section on them

1435
00:53:35,190 --> 00:53:32,880
black project aircraft

1436
00:53:36,150 --> 00:53:35,200
and we won't get into the calvine report

1437
00:53:37,430 --> 00:53:36,160
again

1438
00:53:39,670 --> 00:53:37,440
but there's a whole section of this

1439
00:53:41,270 --> 00:53:39,680
where we talked about um

1440
00:53:43,910 --> 00:53:41,280
a friendly

1441
00:53:45,990 --> 00:53:43,920
aircraft that um

1442
00:53:48,069 --> 00:53:46,000
people wouldn't necessarily recognize as

1443
00:53:50,230 --> 00:53:48,079
conventional aircraft the pipe that are

1444
00:53:52,549 --> 00:53:50,240
sent by uh foreign sometimes friendly

1445
00:53:54,870 --> 00:53:52,559
nations that fly over the uk and there's

1446
00:53:56,309 --> 00:53:54,880
a whole page that's just blank

1447
00:53:58,790 --> 00:53:56,319
you know with a big line through it

1448
00:54:01,589 --> 00:53:58,800
section 26 and section 27 oh just

1449
00:54:04,150 --> 00:54:01,599
redacted yeah yeah because it's it's

1450
00:54:05,349 --> 00:54:04,160
it's sensitive intelligence um that's

1451
00:54:07,109 --> 00:54:05,359
been shared

1452
00:54:09,750 --> 00:54:07,119
with the americans

1453
00:54:13,030 --> 00:54:09,760
so in in volume i think it might be

1454
00:54:15,510 --> 00:54:13,040
volume one um or volume three

1455
00:54:17,190 --> 00:54:15,520
there's a picture of something that they

1456
00:54:19,430 --> 00:54:17,200
don't want us to see which will be one

1457
00:54:22,230 --> 00:54:19,440
of these huge triangular stealthy

1458
00:54:24,790 --> 00:54:22,240
objects like what was seen in kelvin

1459
00:54:26,069 --> 00:54:24,800
um so it's all it's basically all there

1460
00:54:27,589 --> 00:54:26,079
and but the bizarre thing about the

1461
00:54:30,150 --> 00:54:27,599
condo studies

1462
00:54:31,270 --> 00:54:30,160
he comes up with this bizarre

1463
00:54:33,589 --> 00:54:31,280
theory

1464
00:54:36,069 --> 00:54:33,599
that yeah these things exist they they

1465
00:54:38,710 --> 00:54:36,079
move at incredible speed they land they

1466
00:54:40,710 --> 00:54:38,720
have effects on people and on animals

1467
00:54:42,630 --> 00:54:40,720
and they leave marks on the ground and

1468
00:54:45,510 --> 00:54:42,640
this time the other um

1469
00:54:47,190 --> 00:54:45,520
the very extremely rare phenomena but um

1470
00:54:49,750 --> 00:54:47,200
he basically says there's no evidence

1471
00:54:51,670 --> 00:54:49,760
that if any of them have ever crashed

1472
00:54:55,430 --> 00:54:51,680
there's no they never left any any

1473
00:54:57,670 --> 00:54:55,440
traces radiation traces they've never um

1474
00:54:59,990 --> 00:54:57,680
there's no electronic intelligence

1475
00:55:00,710 --> 00:55:00,000
there's no signals intelligence about

1476
00:55:04,069 --> 00:55:00,720
them

1477
00:55:05,670 --> 00:55:04,079
um but clearly they exist and

1478
00:55:08,630 --> 00:55:05,680
which is the conclusion that it's some

1479
00:55:10,630 --> 00:55:08,640
kind of natural plasma

1480
00:55:12,870 --> 00:55:10,640
energy um that

1481
00:55:14,630 --> 00:55:12,880
exists in our atmosphere in the lower

1482
00:55:15,510 --> 00:55:14,640
atmosphere in the upper atmosphere as

1483
00:55:17,510 --> 00:55:15,520
well

1484
00:55:18,950 --> 00:55:17,520
that is occasionally seen by pilots and

1485
00:55:20,710 --> 00:55:18,960
he says basically there are all these

1486
00:55:22,549 --> 00:55:20,720
sightings by pilots and it's probably

1487
00:55:24,789 --> 00:55:22,559
plasma that they're seeing

1488
00:55:27,030 --> 00:55:24,799
that looks metallic that looks like a

1489
00:55:28,230 --> 00:55:27,040
solid object but it's actually

1490
00:55:29,990 --> 00:55:28,240
just um

1491
00:55:31,670 --> 00:55:30,000
i mean what is plasma i made some nerves

1492
00:55:33,990 --> 00:55:31,680
about this earlier

1493
00:55:35,910 --> 00:55:34,000
i mean just going online on wikipedia

1494
00:55:39,109 --> 00:55:35,920
plasma one of the four fundamental

1495
00:55:40,870 --> 00:55:39,119
states of mata basically is ionized gas

1496
00:55:42,630 --> 00:55:40,880
and his theory was

1497
00:55:44,630 --> 00:55:42,640
basically you've got meteorites that are

1498
00:55:47,109 --> 00:55:44,640
impacting on the atmosphere that are

1499
00:55:50,710 --> 00:55:47,119
creating this ionized gas like the you

1500
00:55:52,630 --> 00:55:50,720
know the aurora borealis absolutely yeah

1501
00:55:55,109 --> 00:55:52,640
basically it's the there's some of these

1502
00:55:55,910 --> 00:55:55,119
plasmas that are actually surviving

1503
00:56:05,750 --> 00:55:55,920
the

1504
00:56:07,190 --> 00:56:05,760
and you can see how somebody might see

1505
00:56:09,510 --> 00:56:07,200
one of these things and they see all

1506
00:56:11,109 --> 00:56:09,520
this stuff whirling around inside and if

1507
00:56:13,670 --> 00:56:11,119
the scene in daylight they might appear

1508
00:56:15,190 --> 00:56:13,680
to be metallic or reflective and that's

1509
00:56:17,190 --> 00:56:15,200
how people get this idea about them

1510
00:56:20,069 --> 00:56:17,200
being disc shaped

1511
00:56:22,069 --> 00:56:20,079
the problem with this is

1512
00:56:25,349 --> 00:56:22,079
it's not scientific

1513
00:56:27,190 --> 00:56:25,359
that you could not find a scientist who

1514
00:56:29,430 --> 00:56:27,200
would sort of say yeah

1515
00:56:31,510 --> 00:56:29,440
there are these amazing plasmas that are

1516
00:56:33,990 --> 00:56:31,520
created in the atmosphere that come down

1517
00:56:35,030 --> 00:56:34,000
to the ground that people see as ufos i

1518
00:56:36,309 --> 00:56:35,040
mean

1519
00:56:38,309 --> 00:56:36,319
to me

1520
00:56:40,069 --> 00:56:38,319
as much as i like the idea and i think

1521
00:56:42,630 --> 00:56:40,079
it might explain something some of the

1522
00:56:44,230 --> 00:56:42,640
more puzzling cases to me it's just like

1523
00:56:45,990 --> 00:56:44,240
and i said this on that channel five

1524
00:56:47,720 --> 00:56:46,000
program which they honestly they just

1525
00:56:49,589 --> 00:56:47,730
cut to ribbons and just the bits

1526
00:56:50,789 --> 00:56:49,599
[Laughter]

1527
00:56:53,990 --> 00:56:50,799
um

1528
00:56:56,230 --> 00:56:54,000
i basically said that i like it the idea

1529
00:56:58,230 --> 00:56:56,240
it sounds interesting and it's it's an

1530
00:57:00,069 --> 00:56:58,240
alternative to the extraterrestrial

1531
00:57:02,710 --> 00:57:00,079
hypothesis

1532
00:57:05,589 --> 00:57:02,720
it's got no more evidence than it's it

1533
00:57:08,069 --> 00:57:05,599
sounds scientific but it's nonsense

1534
00:57:10,069 --> 00:57:08,079
where's the evidence for it you know

1535
00:57:12,630 --> 00:57:10,079
if you speak to plasma physicists as i

1536
00:57:15,270 --> 00:57:12,640
have done they i mean

1537
00:57:17,109 --> 00:57:15,280
i mean jenny randall's um is very keen

1538
00:57:19,990 --> 00:57:17,119
on sort of suggesting that what alan

1539
00:57:22,470 --> 00:57:20,000
godfrey pc alan godfrey saw oh yeah the

1540
00:57:24,470 --> 00:57:22,480
flying saucer in todd madden was one of

1541
00:57:27,030 --> 00:57:24,480
these plasmas

1542
00:57:28,549 --> 00:57:27,040
now nice idea but

1543
00:57:30,789 --> 00:57:28,559
if you talk to a plasma physicist

1544
00:57:32,870 --> 00:57:30,799
something that big that he described

1545
00:57:34,390 --> 00:57:32,880
that was sitting there in front of him

1546
00:57:37,190 --> 00:57:34,400
if that was a plasma he'd have been

1547
00:57:39,510 --> 00:57:37,200
basically fried alive i mean this this

1548
00:57:41,109 --> 00:57:39,520
thing is like nuclear energy yeah like

1549
00:57:42,950 --> 00:57:41,119
radiation yeah

1550
00:57:45,430 --> 00:57:42,960
it wouldn't just leave a bit of a swirl

1551
00:57:47,670 --> 00:57:45,440
on the floor you know yeah i'm not

1552
00:57:49,510 --> 00:57:47,680
surprised that he lost consciousness

1553
00:57:51,510 --> 00:57:49,520
because you probably would confronted by

1554
00:57:53,109 --> 00:57:51,520
something like that but i think he'd

1555
00:57:54,470 --> 00:57:53,119
have been a bit warmer than what he was

1556
00:57:56,470 --> 00:57:54,480
that night

1557
00:57:57,750 --> 00:57:56,480
if he was a plumber i mean

1558
00:58:00,230 --> 00:57:57,760
he

1559
00:58:03,510 --> 00:58:00,240
i like it but i'm sorry it doesn't stack

1560
00:58:06,069 --> 00:58:03,520
up and i think it was just ron haddow's

1561
00:58:06,950 --> 00:58:06,079
personal sort of muse and he got this

1562
00:58:09,750 --> 00:58:06,960
money

1563
00:58:11,430 --> 00:58:09,760
and despite the fact that he says in the

1564
00:58:13,030 --> 00:58:11,440
report that he didn't want to get sucked

1565
00:58:14,150 --> 00:58:13,040
into

1566
00:58:16,150 --> 00:58:14,160
media

1567
00:58:17,829 --> 00:58:16,160
and ufology he didn't what he wanted to

1568
00:58:19,270 --> 00:58:17,839
keep himself out of that altogether he

1569
00:58:21,589 --> 00:58:19,280
just wanted to look at the evidence in

1570
00:58:24,470 --> 00:58:21,599
the way that you would as a member of a

1571
00:58:26,470 --> 00:58:24,480
jury in a crown court trial sure but

1572
00:58:28,390 --> 00:58:26,480
having said that you've read through the

1573
00:58:30,390 --> 00:58:28,400
report and then he starts referring to

1574
00:58:33,270 --> 00:58:30,400
paul deveraux's book earth lights and

1575
00:58:34,549 --> 00:58:33,280
jenny randles this and anything this is

1576
00:58:36,710 --> 00:58:34,559
the guy that said he's not going to get

1577
00:58:38,390 --> 00:58:36,720
immersed in ufology so quite clearly

1578
00:58:40,150 --> 00:58:38,400
he'd read all the same books that i'd

1579
00:58:41,430 --> 00:58:40,160
read and so he's actually got one of my

1580
00:58:43,349 --> 00:58:41,440
books on his list

1581
00:58:45,589 --> 00:58:43,359
and he'd obviously read all this stuff

1582
00:58:47,510 --> 00:58:45,599
and thought earth lights yeah oh yeah so

1583
00:58:50,069 --> 00:58:47,520
as well as plasmas some of these things

1584
00:58:51,910 --> 00:58:50,079
could be like ufologists are saying you

1585
00:58:54,150 --> 00:58:51,920
know these lights in hesstal and in

1586
00:58:55,990 --> 00:58:54,160
norway that they think are created by

1587
00:58:57,069 --> 00:58:56,000
geological forces you know sort of

1588
00:58:59,190 --> 00:58:57,079
creating this

1589
00:59:00,470 --> 00:58:59,200
piezoelectricity yeah

1590
00:59:03,990 --> 00:59:00,480
yeah

1591
00:59:05,430 --> 00:59:04,000
maybe but where's the evidence

1592
00:59:07,990 --> 00:59:05,440
that's exactly where i'm i'm going to

1593
00:59:09,750 --> 00:59:08,000
colombia in a week and a half to

1594
00:59:11,589 --> 00:59:09,760
investigate a phenomenon that happens

1595
00:59:12,710 --> 00:59:11,599
there that is exactly the same it's

1596
00:59:14,789 --> 00:59:12,720
plasma

1597
00:59:15,670 --> 00:59:14,799
possibly based it's on top of a mountain

1598
00:59:17,589 --> 00:59:15,680
in a

1599
00:59:19,829 --> 00:59:17,599
something that almost mirrors hestalin

1600
00:59:21,829 --> 00:59:19,839
so yeah um i just want to raise this

1601
00:59:24,069 --> 00:59:21,839
question here from eve clancy to say

1602
00:59:26,630 --> 00:59:24,079
thank you for the five donation but eve

1603
00:59:29,030 --> 00:59:26,640
says how prominent have mib experiences

1604
00:59:31,910 --> 00:59:29,040
historically been in the uk after the

1605
00:59:36,390 --> 00:59:31,920
whale school ufo a local woman

1606
00:59:41,829 --> 00:59:38,470
well

1607
00:59:44,829 --> 00:59:41,839
two

1608
00:59:46,710 --> 00:59:44,839
mips that visited that lady

1609
00:59:47,750 --> 00:59:46,720
wow

1610
00:59:50,390 --> 00:59:47,760
michelle

1611
00:59:53,109 --> 00:59:50,400
yeah i think i think um

1612
00:59:55,349 --> 00:59:53,119
the person she's referring to there is a

1613
00:59:57,589 --> 00:59:55,359
lady called rosa grant granville i think

1614
00:59:59,109 --> 00:59:57,599
she was called and she ran a hotel which

1615
01:00:02,309 --> 00:59:59,119
still exists

1616
01:00:04,950 --> 01:00:02,319
on the west coast of wales and

1617
01:00:07,349 --> 01:00:04,960
on one night in 1977 this was part of

1618
01:00:08,710 --> 01:00:07,359
the west wales flat she saw what she

1619
01:00:10,390 --> 01:00:08,720
thought was a flying saucer i don't know

1620
01:00:12,789 --> 01:00:10,400
whether she's like come down or it was

1621
01:00:14,870 --> 01:00:12,799
already there and there was two guys or

1622
01:00:17,430 --> 01:00:14,880
one guy coming dressed in like a silver

1623
01:00:19,109 --> 01:00:17,440
suit that was standing examining the

1624
01:00:20,069 --> 01:00:19,119
ground or collecting samples or

1625
01:00:22,789 --> 01:00:20,079
something

1626
01:00:25,430 --> 01:00:22,799
and again she reported it to the local

1627
01:00:28,549 --> 01:00:25,440
air base which was raf broady which um

1628
01:00:30,549 --> 01:00:28,559
there was a top secret u.s naval base

1629
01:00:34,390 --> 01:00:30,559
that was part of our broady at the time

1630
01:00:35,510 --> 01:00:34,400
who were up to doing top secrety things

1631
01:00:37,349 --> 01:00:35,520
um

1632
01:00:39,349 --> 01:00:37,359
so there was some local speculation that

1633
01:00:41,430 --> 01:00:39,359
they might have been involved anyway um

1634
01:00:43,430 --> 01:00:41,440
you know the the document we saw earlier

1635
01:00:46,470 --> 01:00:43,440
written by that um guy called john

1636
01:00:48,630 --> 01:00:46,480
padusi where he talks about having made

1637
01:00:49,990 --> 01:00:48,640
some discreet inquiries in

1638
01:00:53,030 --> 01:00:50,000
in wales

1639
01:00:57,030 --> 01:00:53,040
well he basically sent an raf police

1640
01:00:59,270 --> 01:00:57,040
team and um and i know um i spoke to um

1641
01:01:01,670 --> 01:00:59,280
the guy who was the squadron leader

1642
01:01:04,230 --> 01:01:01,680
at raf broady at the time and he

1643
01:01:05,910 --> 01:01:04,240
remembered being asked to go and speak

1644
01:01:07,670 --> 01:01:05,920
to rosa granville

1645
01:01:09,670 --> 01:01:07,680
um so he was one of the many men in

1646
01:01:12,390 --> 01:01:09,680
black basically that turned up who's who

1647
01:01:14,549 --> 01:01:12,400
were from the military and talked to him

1648
01:01:16,309 --> 01:01:14,559
wow

1649
01:01:18,390 --> 01:01:16,319
dave dave shadows of your mind says

1650
01:01:20,230 --> 01:01:18,400
haven't fought hotel in little haven

1651
01:01:22,710 --> 01:01:20,240
that's the one even for hotel and i

1652
01:01:24,470 --> 01:01:22,720
think they still um they're still open

1653
01:01:26,309 --> 01:01:24,480
and i think if you want to do sort of

1654
01:01:28,630 --> 01:01:26,319
like a ufo themed

1655
01:01:30,950 --> 01:01:28,640
sort of holiday in wales they they still

1656
01:01:32,470 --> 01:01:30,960
have like ufo memorabilia in the hotel

1657
01:01:34,870 --> 01:01:32,480
and you can sort of stay there and you

1658
01:01:36,870 --> 01:01:34,880
can visit some of the places you know

1659
01:01:38,549 --> 01:01:36,880
broadhaven school where the famous

1660
01:01:40,710 --> 01:01:38,559
landing was he's literally sort of like

1661
01:01:42,390 --> 01:01:40,720
a five-minute drive away

1662
01:01:44,390 --> 01:01:42,400
um and he said i'm making a note of that

1663
01:01:46,309 --> 01:01:44,400
right now

1664
01:01:47,910 --> 01:01:46,319
yeah highly recommended so we know who

1665
01:01:50,390 --> 01:01:47,920
the mib were

1666
01:01:52,230 --> 01:01:50,400
um um and

1667
01:01:54,390 --> 01:01:52,240
despite the fact that the government

1668
01:01:56,710 --> 01:01:54,400
denied that um they actually sent people

1669
01:01:58,150 --> 01:01:56,720
out to do these investigations

1670
01:01:59,829 --> 01:01:58,160
um they did

1671
01:02:01,910 --> 01:01:59,839
there's no doubt about it it's there in

1672
01:02:04,950 --> 01:02:01,920
the records um i mean

1673
01:02:07,109 --> 01:02:04,960
some of some of these so-called mib were

1674
01:02:09,190 --> 01:02:07,119
actual ufologists

1675
01:02:11,190 --> 01:02:09,200
um who were you know

1676
01:02:12,789 --> 01:02:11,200
there are people who like to pretend

1677
01:02:14,230 --> 01:02:12,799
that they work for the secret service

1678
01:02:15,510 --> 01:02:14,240
under that

1679
01:02:17,029 --> 01:02:15,520
not beyond sort of knocking on

1680
01:02:19,430 --> 01:02:17,039
somebody's door and saying i work for

1681
01:02:21,270 --> 01:02:19,440
the government tell me about your ufo

1682
01:02:23,190 --> 01:02:21,280
sights

1683
01:02:26,390 --> 01:02:23,200
but some but but some of them were

1684
01:02:28,630 --> 01:02:26,400
genuinely um um raf

1685
01:02:29,430 --> 01:02:28,640
di 55 people because we know they were

1686
01:02:32,390 --> 01:02:29,440
doing

1687
01:02:34,069 --> 01:02:32,400
field investigations in the 60s and 70s

1688
01:02:36,630 --> 01:02:34,079
so dave's saying here as well there two

1689
01:02:40,069 --> 01:02:36,640
mibs allegedly turned up in a silent

1690
01:02:42,150 --> 01:02:40,079
silver car and ripper stone farm too yes

1691
01:02:44,549 --> 01:02:42,160
yeah i'm i'm not so sure about that one

1692
01:02:47,430 --> 01:02:44,559
i think that that was um the famous

1693
01:02:49,430 --> 01:02:47,440
rickerson farm story that we could have

1694
01:02:51,190 --> 01:02:49,440
an entire program talking about and

1695
01:02:53,430 --> 01:02:51,200
where there was like a semi-fictional

1696
01:02:57,750 --> 01:02:53,440
book that was written on the events at

1697
01:02:59,750 --> 01:02:57,760
ripperston farm um and it was basically

1698
01:03:01,829 --> 01:02:59,760
where do i even start with that one but

1699
01:03:04,789 --> 01:03:01,839
a guy did actually come forward in the

1700
01:03:06,870 --> 01:03:04,799
1990s who um

1701
01:03:08,069 --> 01:03:06,880
he claimed that he was responsible for

1702
01:03:10,150 --> 01:03:08,079
some of those sightings of these

1703
01:03:12,309 --> 01:03:10,160
spacemen that were seen walking around

1704
01:03:15,109 --> 01:03:12,319
um in that area and he basically

1705
01:03:16,390 --> 01:03:15,119
obtained a fire fire fighting suit that

1706
01:03:18,710 --> 01:03:16,400
was used

1707
01:03:19,670 --> 01:03:18,720
in one of the local um

1708
01:03:22,309 --> 01:03:19,680
um

1709
01:03:24,309 --> 01:03:22,319
it might have been a an asbestos factory

1710
01:03:25,670 --> 01:03:24,319
or something this was like a huge metal

1711
01:03:27,670 --> 01:03:25,680
suit with like a

1712
01:03:30,150 --> 01:03:27,680
visor dark visor

1713
01:03:32,870 --> 01:03:30,160
and it was on on display in a local shop

1714
01:03:35,510 --> 01:03:32,880
and he after a night on the drink uh

1715
01:03:37,190 --> 01:03:35,520
borrowed this suit and started visiting

1716
01:03:39,270 --> 01:03:37,200
some of these uh remote places where

1717
01:03:41,190 --> 01:03:39,280
ufos have been

1718
01:03:43,109 --> 01:03:41,200
he said he went to a farm which i think

1719
01:03:45,430 --> 01:03:43,119
is ripping farm

1720
01:03:47,349 --> 01:03:45,440
and sort of stood outside the window of

1721
01:03:49,829 --> 01:03:47,359
this farm because it had been in the um

1722
01:03:52,390 --> 01:03:49,839
news the local newspaper has been the

1723
01:03:54,150 --> 01:03:52,400
center of ufo activity and he had to do

1724
01:03:56,829 --> 01:03:54,160
a runner basically because somebody came

1725
01:03:59,510 --> 01:03:56,839
out of the farm with a shotgun

1726
01:04:01,029 --> 01:03:59,520
wow that's crazy whether that is true or

1727
01:04:02,789 --> 01:04:01,039
whether he's making it but i don't know

1728
01:04:04,870 --> 01:04:02,799
but i think there was a bit of hoaxing

1729
01:04:06,630 --> 01:04:04,880
going on which is which is exactly what

1730
01:04:09,270 --> 01:04:06,640
the mod concluded

1731
01:04:10,309 --> 01:04:09,280
uh in in their report

1732
01:04:12,390 --> 01:04:10,319
well i've got to give a shout out to

1733
01:04:15,190 --> 01:04:12,400
dave because he's very knowledgeable and

1734
01:04:17,349 --> 01:04:15,200
part of good friend part of uap media uk

1735
01:04:20,549 --> 01:04:17,359
and he finishes up with saying

1736
01:04:22,309 --> 01:04:20,559
road trip vinnie i'll bring the vino

1737
01:04:24,710 --> 01:04:22,319
now we're talking well it's the

1738
01:04:26,789 --> 01:04:24,720
beautiful part of the world and

1739
01:04:28,470 --> 01:04:26,799
the welsh triangle has been forgotten

1740
01:04:30,230 --> 01:04:28,480
about everyone ever talks about this now

1741
01:04:32,390 --> 01:04:30,240
this is one of my beefs

1742
01:04:35,430 --> 01:04:32,400
with this subject it's all whenever we

1743
01:04:38,630 --> 01:04:35,440
talk about the uk and ufos in the uk

1744
01:04:41,910 --> 01:04:38,640
it's all rendlesham and yeah however

1745
01:04:43,670 --> 01:04:41,920
evidential or not that story is i i

1746
01:04:45,670 --> 01:04:43,680
think people really are getting tired of

1747
01:04:47,190 --> 01:04:45,680
it it's like you know roswell there's

1748
01:04:50,390 --> 01:04:47,200
only so much you can say and there are

1749
01:04:53,109 --> 01:04:50,400
so many more evidential cases

1750
01:04:54,870 --> 01:04:53,119
far more i mean even ones that that i

1751
01:04:56,390 --> 01:04:54,880
can't explain and that's some saying

1752
01:04:57,190 --> 01:04:56,400
something

1753
01:04:59,670 --> 01:04:57,200
well

1754
01:05:02,870 --> 01:04:59,680
you you said it

1755
01:05:05,990 --> 01:05:02,880
yeah i mean one that i that's in the um

1756
01:05:07,430 --> 01:05:06,000
records that um i wrote about on my blog

1757
01:05:10,390 --> 01:05:07,440
i think there was a couple of stories in

1758
01:05:13,029 --> 01:05:10,400
the media about it is the raf trudus

1759
01:05:15,589 --> 01:05:13,039
sighting or incident from them i think

1760
01:05:16,390 --> 01:05:15,599
in that 1984

1761
01:05:18,230 --> 01:05:16,400
um

1762
01:05:19,589 --> 01:05:18,240
really really interesting and this is

1763
01:05:21,349 --> 01:05:19,599
one that got

1764
01:05:24,470 --> 01:05:21,359
um interest from the intelligence

1765
01:05:26,390 --> 01:05:24,480
services and raf trudus is a is a radar

1766
01:05:27,829 --> 01:05:26,400
station that sits right on the top of

1767
01:05:30,630 --> 01:05:27,839
the highest

1768
01:05:32,870 --> 01:05:30,640
um peak in cyprus if anyone's ever been

1769
01:05:35,430 --> 01:05:32,880
to cyprus or no cyprus you know you know

1770
01:05:37,750 --> 01:05:35,440
it's like divided between the

1771
01:05:39,109 --> 01:05:37,760
the greek part and the turkish part and

1772
01:05:40,630 --> 01:05:39,119
there's um

1773
01:05:43,430 --> 01:05:40,640
there's a there's a british sovereign

1774
01:05:45,029 --> 01:05:43,440
territory which has been sort of like

1775
01:05:47,589 --> 01:05:45,039
quite a strategic

1776
01:05:49,510 --> 01:05:47,599
base for uk forces during the cold war

1777
01:05:51,190 --> 01:05:49,520
we've got a radar station called trudos

1778
01:05:53,190 --> 01:05:51,200
that sits right on the top that monitors

1779
01:05:54,789 --> 01:05:53,200
that part of the mediterranean

1780
01:05:58,789 --> 01:05:54,799
and there was an amazing sighting i

1781
01:06:01,910 --> 01:05:58,799
think in october 1982 or 84 where an

1782
01:06:04,470 --> 01:06:01,920
american spy plane a kc-135 i think it

1783
01:06:06,870 --> 01:06:04,480
was um was flying over the mediterranean

1784
01:06:07,829 --> 01:06:06,880
obviously monitoring the um soviet union

1785
01:06:09,270 --> 01:06:07,839
and this

1786
01:06:10,710 --> 01:06:09,280
the whole crew

1787
01:06:12,549 --> 01:06:10,720
saw this

1788
01:06:14,470 --> 01:06:12,559
lighted object with light spinning

1789
01:06:16,150 --> 01:06:14,480
around it that was basically buzzing

1790
01:06:18,549 --> 01:06:16,160
this spy plane

1791
01:06:19,990 --> 01:06:18,559
picked up on the spy plane's radar

1792
01:06:22,230 --> 01:06:20,000
and the interesting thing was because

1793
01:06:24,390 --> 01:06:22,240
the nearest um

1794
01:06:27,670 --> 01:06:24,400
ground radar was this raf one that

1795
01:06:29,990 --> 01:06:27,680
trudus they got in touch um with true

1796
01:06:32,150 --> 01:06:30,000
dos and said look we've got this ufo

1797
01:06:34,069 --> 01:06:32,160
that's following us and you know can you

1798
01:06:37,029 --> 01:06:34,079
see on your radars

1799
01:06:39,109 --> 01:06:37,039
and unfortunately trudos couldn't

1800
01:06:40,870 --> 01:06:39,119
and they they were what's known as a gci

1801
01:06:43,430 --> 01:06:40,880
ground control intercept so it's a

1802
01:06:46,390 --> 01:06:43,440
pretty powerful radar they were looking

1803
01:06:47,990 --> 01:06:46,400
for it and couldn't see it but the um

1804
01:06:50,230 --> 01:06:48,000
for the spy plane could see on their

1805
01:06:51,430 --> 01:06:50,240
airborne radar and it got to such as a

1806
01:06:53,670 --> 01:06:51,440
stage that

1807
01:06:55,589 --> 01:06:53,680
and two phantom jets were scrambled from

1808
01:06:58,150 --> 01:06:55,599
akrotiri which is the british base on

1809
01:07:00,069 --> 01:06:58,160
cyprus and there was a u.s aircraft

1810
01:07:01,510 --> 01:07:00,079
carrier in the mediterranean at the time

1811
01:07:04,309 --> 01:07:01,520
and they launched

1812
01:07:05,750 --> 01:07:04,319
um some um interceptors and both

1813
01:07:08,230 --> 01:07:05,760
aircraft were sort of zooming towards

1814
01:07:12,390 --> 01:07:08,240
the spy plane still being circled

1815
01:07:14,390 --> 01:07:12,400
by the ufo and they and the raf crew on

1816
01:07:15,990 --> 01:07:14,400
um true dots were listening to all the

1817
01:07:18,549 --> 01:07:16,000
conversations that were going on and the

1818
01:07:21,510 --> 01:07:18,559
tape recorded all i sent it to london

1819
01:07:23,430 --> 01:07:21,520
for analysis afterwards and as these um

1820
01:07:25,589 --> 01:07:23,440
jets were coming in to intercept the ufo

1821
01:07:27,829 --> 01:07:25,599
the ufo sort of like obviously saw

1822
01:07:30,870 --> 01:07:27,839
something was coming and

1823
01:07:33,349 --> 01:07:30,880
zoom off it disappeared towards africa

1824
01:07:35,270 --> 01:07:33,359
wow this wall there in the um the files

1825
01:07:37,910 --> 01:07:35,280
and you know i've got some uh i managed

1826
01:07:40,870 --> 01:07:37,920
to get a top secret um

1827
01:07:43,750 --> 01:07:40,880
summary of the incident from the raf

1828
01:07:45,670 --> 01:07:43,760
trudus um operations record book

1829
01:07:48,150 --> 01:07:45,680
um which i think i put online somewhere

1830
01:07:49,990 --> 01:07:48,160
i think it's pretty it pretty some

1831
01:07:50,950 --> 01:07:50,000
stunning sort of account of what

1832
01:07:53,270 --> 01:07:50,960
happened

1833
01:07:55,109 --> 01:07:53,280
and i found another memo that basically

1834
01:07:58,390 --> 01:07:55,119
said this was looked at by the

1835
01:08:01,430 --> 01:07:58,400
intelligence services completely

1836
01:08:03,029 --> 01:08:01,440
um sidetracked the ufo desk they weren't

1837
01:08:05,910 --> 01:08:03,039
even told about it it's not even in

1838
01:08:07,670 --> 01:08:05,920
their files wow which again just shows

1839
01:08:09,589 --> 01:08:07,680
that they just didn't have any part of

1840
01:08:11,349 --> 01:08:09,599
these investigations

1841
01:08:13,349 --> 01:08:11,359
sent to the americans because it's

1842
01:08:15,829 --> 01:08:13,359
obviously an american incident that we

1843
01:08:17,349 --> 01:08:15,839
were sort of peripherally involved in

1844
01:08:19,349 --> 01:08:17,359
and you know all this stuff that's been

1845
01:08:22,630 --> 01:08:19,359
going on with the pentagon report and

1846
01:08:25,269 --> 01:08:22,640
this you know the the uap task force

1847
01:08:28,229 --> 01:08:25,279
you know i'd like to see

1848
01:08:30,229 --> 01:08:28,239
um what whether this forms part of what

1849
01:08:31,510 --> 01:08:30,239
they're looking at i suspected

1850
01:08:34,149 --> 01:08:31,520
because the report said they're not

1851
01:08:35,749 --> 01:08:34,159
looking at anything before 2004

1852
01:08:37,590 --> 01:08:35,759
but somewhere i think

1853
01:08:39,749 --> 01:08:37,600
i think that even it wasn't just there

1854
01:08:41,030 --> 01:08:39,759
was one case at 2004 the nimitz and i

1855
01:08:43,829 --> 01:08:41,040
think after that

1856
01:08:47,349 --> 01:08:43,839
it jumps right up to sort of 2014 2015

1857
01:08:49,430 --> 01:08:47,359
with navy cases from naval base oceana

1858
01:08:50,870 --> 01:08:49,440
off of the the florida coast and

1859
01:08:52,709 --> 01:08:50,880
obviously a few things off of the west

1860
01:08:55,269 --> 01:08:52,719
coast as well it was very

1861
01:08:56,950 --> 01:08:55,279
precise areas and times so yeah i doubt

1862
01:08:58,470 --> 01:08:56,960
they were looking at it at all

1863
01:09:00,070 --> 01:08:58,480
so what's happened to all this earlier

1864
01:09:01,910 --> 01:09:00,080
stuff you know because their their

1865
01:09:03,749 --> 01:09:01,920
position at the time the americans was

1866
01:09:07,030 --> 01:09:03,759
you know after project blue book closed

1867
01:09:08,470 --> 01:09:07,040
in 1969 we were not interested

1868
01:09:15,030 --> 01:09:08,480
in

1869
01:09:16,870 --> 01:09:15,040
when the uap task force were given 180

1870
01:09:18,870 --> 01:09:16,880
days to collate information and report

1871
01:09:21,749 --> 01:09:18,880
on it they were very very limited with

1872
01:09:24,470 --> 01:09:21,759
staffing time scales we had the mid

1873
01:09:27,269 --> 01:09:24,480
midst of the pandemic they had push push

1874
01:09:28,470 --> 01:09:27,279
back from multiple agencies for actually

1875
01:09:30,470 --> 01:09:28,480
gathering the information they were

1876
01:09:31,910 --> 01:09:30,480
entitled to i think there were many

1877
01:09:34,870 --> 01:09:31,920
aspects of it that really stopped them

1878
01:09:35,829 --> 01:09:34,880
from formulating a a better report

1879
01:09:37,590 --> 01:09:35,839
i mean

1880
01:09:39,349 --> 01:09:37,600
we don't know what the classified report

1881
01:09:41,189 --> 01:09:39,359
had but we know that the

1882
01:09:43,590 --> 01:09:41,199
the public preliminary assessment was

1883
01:09:46,070 --> 01:09:43,600
very limited with data so

1884
01:09:48,950 --> 01:09:46,080
you know it's it's hard to say

1885
01:09:51,349 --> 01:09:48,960
but and again um this is where di 55 are

1886
01:09:53,510 --> 01:09:51,359
quite interesting because um

1887
01:09:56,550 --> 01:09:53,520
we're told aren't we that this um what

1888
01:09:59,270 --> 01:09:56,560
was it originally called the aetip um

1889
01:10:01,350 --> 01:09:59,280
task force thing that we originally told

1890
01:10:03,350 --> 01:10:01,360
coming to existence i think about was it

1891
01:10:06,630 --> 01:10:03,360
2000 and

1892
01:10:07,910 --> 01:10:06,640
when was it 2006 or 2007 or something

1893
01:10:10,870 --> 01:10:07,920
yeah there's a bit of conjecture about

1894
01:10:13,830 --> 01:10:10,880
that but yeah 2007-8 that kind of time

1895
01:10:16,070 --> 01:10:13,840
but i know for a fact having spoken to

1896
01:10:18,070 --> 01:10:16,080
some of these di-55 people that that's

1897
01:10:19,990 --> 01:10:18,080
nonsense they were talking to another

1898
01:10:20,870 --> 01:10:20,000
organization that was doing effectively

1899
01:10:23,430 --> 01:10:20,880
that

1900
01:10:24,950 --> 01:10:23,440
in the 1990s you know during the period

1901
01:10:27,270 --> 01:10:24,960
in which they said

1902
01:10:30,070 --> 01:10:27,280
um they didn't have any um formal

1903
01:10:31,189 --> 01:10:30,080
interest in the subject and i i'm this

1904
01:10:33,590 --> 01:10:31,199
is something i'm looking into at the

1905
01:10:38,630 --> 01:10:33,600
moment but there was one occasion where

1906
01:10:41,669 --> 01:10:38,640
i think in 1992 or 1993 two di-55

1907
01:10:45,350 --> 01:10:41,679
um officers who had ufo responsibilities

1908
01:10:47,910 --> 01:10:45,360
flew to washington for a conference with

1909
01:10:49,669 --> 01:10:47,920
defence intelligence agencies cia and

1910
01:10:52,550 --> 01:10:49,679
various other agencies that were

1911
01:10:54,149 --> 01:10:52,560
actively investigating ufos at that time

1912
01:10:56,870 --> 01:10:54,159
and they were sharing

1913
01:10:59,189 --> 01:10:56,880
um information that the di-55 had

1914
01:11:01,189 --> 01:10:59,199
collected you know i've heard the rumors

1915
01:11:03,510 --> 01:11:01,199
i've heard the rumors but there's no

1916
01:11:05,510 --> 01:11:03,520
data i can't

1917
01:11:07,350 --> 01:11:05,520
say anything about it to be honest you

1918
01:11:10,390 --> 01:11:07,360
know i've heard little bits and bobs and

1919
01:11:12,550 --> 01:11:10,400
it's just you can't research it

1920
01:11:14,070 --> 01:11:12,560
there's no

1921
01:11:15,669 --> 01:11:14,080
the information is obviously there but

1922
01:11:17,830 --> 01:11:15,679
they just won't release it and we may

1923
01:11:19,350 --> 01:11:17,840
have to wait another 50 or 60 years but

1924
01:11:20,709 --> 01:11:19,360
by then they'll probably have destroyed

1925
01:11:22,229 --> 01:11:20,719
it

1926
01:11:25,510 --> 01:11:22,239
maybe

1927
01:11:26,870 --> 01:11:25,520
reiterate that there's a couple of

1928
01:11:28,709 --> 01:11:26,880
people asking questions i'm going to

1929
01:11:30,790 --> 01:11:28,719
save them towards the end of the

1930
01:11:33,350 --> 01:11:30,800
interview so don't worry i will get to

1931
01:11:34,709 --> 01:11:33,360
it i really appreciate that now i've got

1932
01:11:35,990 --> 01:11:34,719
a document up still i don't know if it's

1933
01:11:38,709 --> 01:11:36,000
still relevant to what we're talking

1934
01:11:40,630 --> 01:11:38,719
about this is my favorite one yeah yeah

1935
01:11:44,390 --> 01:11:40,640
the one from 1995.

1936
01:11:49,590 --> 01:11:46,790
uh no

1937
01:11:51,830 --> 01:11:49,600
no i've gone past it then

1938
01:11:53,590 --> 01:11:51,840
it's the one that says ouch on it

1939
01:11:56,709 --> 01:11:53,600
somebody scribbled the word ouch from

1940
01:12:00,390 --> 01:11:58,070
wait let me just share the screen and

1941
01:12:02,229 --> 01:12:00,400
you can tell me

1942
01:12:04,950 --> 01:12:02,239
no that you've gone right to the end now

1943
01:12:07,510 --> 01:12:04,960
everything so if you go back a bit

1944
01:12:07,990 --> 01:12:07,520
yeah we got to ron how didn't

1945
01:12:08,709 --> 01:12:08,000
there we

1946
01:12:11,030 --> 01:12:08,719
go

1947
01:12:14,390 --> 01:12:11,040
yeah so this is this is written by the

1948
01:12:16,310 --> 01:12:14,400
um the ufo desk officer in di55 and this

1949
01:12:18,790 --> 01:12:16,320
is this is the bit where

1950
01:12:20,630 --> 01:12:18,800
he is trying to persuade his boss to

1951
01:12:22,470 --> 01:12:20,640
give him some information to set up this

1952
01:12:24,470 --> 01:12:22,480
computer database

1953
01:12:26,709 --> 01:12:24,480
and um

1954
01:12:27,590 --> 01:12:26,719
but i've got to read this because to me

1955
01:12:31,270 --> 01:12:27,600
this

1956
01:12:33,830 --> 01:12:31,280
know the truth

1957
01:12:35,590 --> 01:12:33,840
about what went on what how they studied

1958
01:12:36,630 --> 01:12:35,600
this subject and he basically says to

1959
01:12:39,030 --> 01:12:36,640
his boss

1960
01:12:41,669 --> 01:12:39,040
for many years various ufo groups have

1961
01:12:43,830 --> 01:12:41,679
associated di-55 with reports of

1962
01:12:46,390 --> 01:12:43,840
unidentified flying objects

1963
01:12:48,790 --> 01:12:46,400
indeed i have several books at home that

1964
01:12:51,750 --> 01:12:48,800
describe our supposed role as defender

1965
01:12:54,310 --> 01:12:51,760
of the earth against the alien menace

1966
01:12:56,870 --> 01:12:54,320
it is light years from the truth

1967
01:12:59,750 --> 01:12:56,880
and then he says i see no reason for

1968
01:13:02,470 --> 01:12:59,760
continuing to deny that di-55 has an

1969
01:13:05,189 --> 01:13:02,480
interest in ufos however if the

1970
01:13:07,430 --> 01:13:05,199
association is formally made public then

1971
01:13:10,310 --> 01:13:07,440
the mod will no doubt be pressured to

1972
01:13:12,470 --> 01:13:10,320
state what the intelligence role stroke

1973
01:13:14,070 --> 01:13:12,480
interest actually is and this is the

1974
01:13:16,229 --> 01:13:14,080
killer line

1975
01:13:18,310 --> 01:13:16,239
this could lead to disbelief and

1976
01:13:21,030 --> 01:13:18,320
embarrassment since few people are

1977
01:13:22,950 --> 01:13:21,040
likely to believe the truth that lack of

1978
01:13:25,510 --> 01:13:22,960
funds and the higher priorities have

1979
01:13:28,790 --> 01:13:25,520
prevented any study of the thousands of

1980
01:13:33,189 --> 01:13:28,800
reports received now someone i think

1981
01:13:35,510 --> 01:13:33,199
this this guy's um immediate superiors

1982
01:13:37,270 --> 01:13:35,520
put a little mark which you can see in

1983
01:13:38,310 --> 01:13:37,280
the margin there and written the word

1984
01:13:41,990 --> 01:13:38,320
ouch

1985
01:13:46,070 --> 01:13:43,750
so basically what he's saying is we've

1986
01:13:47,669 --> 01:13:46,080
been collecting these reports for years

1987
01:13:49,990 --> 01:13:47,679
we're under so much pressure because

1988
01:13:52,390 --> 01:13:50,000
we've got so much work on and anyone who

1989
01:13:54,950 --> 01:13:52,400
works um in the civil service will

1990
01:13:57,030 --> 01:13:54,960
understand this or in the military that

1991
01:13:58,709 --> 01:13:57,040
basically um

1992
01:14:00,550 --> 01:13:58,719
i've got this is him talking i've got

1993
01:14:02,950 --> 01:14:00,560
this massive pile of things i've got to

1994
01:14:04,229 --> 01:14:02,960
do every single day i come in you know

1995
01:14:05,669 --> 01:14:04,239
i've got to keep an eye on what the

1996
01:14:07,350 --> 01:14:05,679
russians are doing with the latest

1997
01:14:08,630 --> 01:14:07,360
aircraft technology i've got to keep an

1998
01:14:10,470 --> 01:14:08,640
eye on what they're doing with the

1999
01:14:12,290 --> 01:14:10,480
ballistic missiles and then i've got

2000
01:14:14,070 --> 01:14:12,300
this pile of ufos

2001
01:14:16,310 --> 01:14:14,080
[Laughter]

2002
01:14:17,830 --> 01:14:16,320
on my desk and and i've spoken to the

2003
01:14:20,229 --> 01:14:17,840
the guy who wrote this memo and he said

2004
01:14:22,390 --> 01:14:20,239
i got into i used to come into london by

2005
01:14:23,510 --> 01:14:22,400
train every morning i'd go into my

2006
01:14:25,350 --> 01:14:23,520
office

2007
01:14:27,350 --> 01:14:25,360
and there'd be a brown envelope sitting

2008
01:14:30,550 --> 01:14:27,360
sent by nick pope or whoever was doing

2009
01:14:33,430 --> 01:14:30,560
the other the the the ufo desk job every

2010
01:14:36,470 --> 01:14:33,440
single day there would be sometimes 30

2011
01:14:40,470 --> 01:14:36,480
40 incidents to look at i'm only i only

2012
01:14:41,750 --> 01:14:40,480
got like however many hours in the day

2013
01:14:42,950 --> 01:14:41,760
just get them out the envelope have a

2014
01:14:45,430 --> 01:14:42,960
look through them

2015
01:14:46,790 --> 01:14:45,440
right okay stick them in the file

2016
01:14:48,470 --> 01:14:46,800
and that would be the extent of the

2017
01:14:50,310 --> 01:14:48,480
investigation because they had no money

2018
01:14:53,030 --> 01:14:50,320
no time no resources and that's

2019
01:14:55,030 --> 01:14:53,040
effectively what he's saying there and

2020
01:14:57,189 --> 01:14:55,040
he was writing that before freedom of

2021
01:14:59,189 --> 01:14:57,199
information he never suspected that we

2022
01:15:00,229 --> 01:14:59,199
would be sitting scrutinizing his words

2023
01:15:01,510 --> 01:15:00,239
tonight

2024
01:15:03,030 --> 01:15:01,520
and that

2025
01:15:05,510 --> 01:15:03,040
is the truth

2026
01:15:07,510 --> 01:15:05,520
the inconvenient truth that if anyone

2027
01:15:10,229 --> 01:15:07,520
was properly invested if anyone is the

2028
01:15:12,310 --> 01:15:10,239
real men in black it was it was them but

2029
01:15:14,070 --> 01:15:12,320
they did the time they didn't have the

2030
01:15:16,390 --> 01:15:14,080
money it was all a big pain in the

2031
01:15:18,550 --> 01:15:16,400
bottom for them that they wanted to get

2032
01:15:20,229 --> 01:15:18,560
they wanted to get rid of it basically

2033
01:15:22,790 --> 01:15:20,239
it was embarrassing to them and because

2034
01:15:24,310 --> 01:15:22,800
they were a secret agency

2035
01:15:25,830 --> 01:15:24,320
they were embarrassed about all the

2036
01:15:27,590 --> 01:15:25,840
publicity that they were getting you

2037
01:15:30,630 --> 01:15:27,600
know this thing about um the defender of

2038
01:15:32,229 --> 01:15:30,640
the earth against the alien menace yeah

2039
01:15:34,630 --> 01:15:32,239
you know it was like they'd be thinking

2040
01:15:37,510 --> 01:15:34,640
you know the last thing we want is the

2041
01:15:40,229 --> 01:15:37,520
russians to start coming sort of using

2042
01:15:43,590 --> 01:15:40,239
the ufo subject to sort of find out who

2043
01:15:44,709 --> 01:15:43,600
it is who runs di-55 and and finding out

2044
01:15:46,310 --> 01:15:44,719
where they live

2045
01:15:49,030 --> 01:15:46,320
you know you can you see where i'm going

2046
01:15:50,390 --> 01:15:49,040
with this you know absolutely

2047
01:15:53,750 --> 01:15:50,400
extremely

2048
01:15:55,910 --> 01:15:53,760
embarrassed about and so what was the

2049
01:15:58,149 --> 01:15:55,920
conclusion of the condone report what

2050
01:15:59,910 --> 01:15:58,159
was ron haddow told

2051
01:16:00,950 --> 01:15:59,920
he was basically told here's some money

2052
01:16:01,750 --> 01:16:00,960
go off

2053
01:16:03,750 --> 01:16:01,760
and

2054
01:16:05,030 --> 01:16:03,760
produce this database

2055
01:16:06,470 --> 01:16:05,040
muck about with it we know you're

2056
01:16:08,550 --> 01:16:06,480
interested in the subject you know you

2057
01:16:10,709 --> 01:16:08,560
can have a few years paid

2058
01:16:12,709 --> 01:16:10,719
and studying it don't break don't don't

2059
01:16:14,950 --> 01:16:12,719
bring any attention to yourself but you

2060
01:16:18,550 --> 01:16:14,960
can say whatever people like about the

2061
01:16:21,110 --> 01:16:18,560
subject as long as it says di55 no

2062
01:16:23,910 --> 01:16:21,120
longer need to be interested or study

2063
01:16:26,550 --> 01:16:23,920
ufos anymore so as long as you you can

2064
01:16:29,189 --> 01:16:26,560
say that it's the jolly green giant that

2065
01:16:31,750 --> 01:16:29,199
send in ufos we don't care as long as

2066
01:16:33,750 --> 01:16:31,760
your main recommendation is that defense

2067
01:16:35,990 --> 01:16:33,760
intelligence no longer needs to see

2068
01:16:37,910 --> 01:16:36,000
these reports or spend any more time on

2069
01:16:40,470 --> 01:16:37,920
them and lo and behold

2070
01:16:42,550 --> 01:16:40,480
that's the conclusion of the condyne

2071
01:16:43,830 --> 01:16:42,560
study which you can see if we go a bit

2072
01:16:46,390 --> 01:16:43,840
further along

2073
01:16:53,990 --> 01:16:48,070
and that folks is how the government

2074
01:16:59,430 --> 01:16:56,630
it opens up so many questions though it

2075
01:17:00,790 --> 01:16:59,440
really does yeah i mean that's that top

2076
01:17:03,270 --> 01:17:00,800
paragraph there i think that's in the

2077
01:17:05,990 --> 01:17:03,280
introduction that's the one where i you

2078
01:17:07,750 --> 01:17:06,000
know if if if you're looking for

2079
01:17:09,030 --> 01:17:07,760
evidence of government interest in the

2080
01:17:10,630 --> 01:17:09,040
subject

2081
01:17:13,030 --> 01:17:10,640
he actually says there's no doubt that

2082
01:17:16,470 --> 01:17:13,040
these things exist they are spherical

2083
01:17:20,229 --> 01:17:16,480
disk cigar shaped um they have they move

2084
01:17:22,630 --> 01:17:20,239
they occur on a daily worldwide basis

2085
01:17:24,950 --> 01:17:22,640
there's a line there that says that uap

2086
01:17:28,070 --> 01:17:24,960
exists is indisputable

2087
01:17:30,229 --> 01:17:28,080
now that is a killer line into huge

2088
01:17:32,310 --> 01:17:30,239
ability to hover land take off

2089
01:17:34,310 --> 01:17:32,320
accelerate to exceptional velocities and

2090
01:17:37,110 --> 01:17:34,320
vanish they can reportedly alter their

2091
01:17:40,310 --> 01:17:37,120
direction of flight suddenly and clearly

2092
01:17:42,470 --> 01:17:40,320
can exhibit aerodynamical aerodynamic

2093
01:17:44,709 --> 01:17:42,480
characteristics well beyond those of any

2094
01:17:47,590 --> 01:17:44,719
known aircraft or missile either manned

2095
01:17:50,149 --> 01:17:47,600
or unmanned now

2096
01:17:53,430 --> 01:17:50,159
is amazing that is a british

2097
01:17:55,510 --> 01:17:53,440
intelligence study conclusion i mean

2098
01:17:57,270 --> 01:17:55,520
you can stick your pentagon report this

2099
01:17:59,750 --> 01:17:57,280
is this yeah

2100
01:18:02,229 --> 01:17:59,760
i mean all that all that fuss and what

2101
01:18:04,070 --> 01:18:02,239
did we get six pages of

2102
01:18:05,750 --> 01:18:04,080
from the pentagon that said virtually

2103
01:18:08,229 --> 01:18:05,760
nothing we didn't already know you know

2104
01:18:10,709 --> 01:18:08,239
if you want to read really in-depth um

2105
01:18:13,110 --> 01:18:10,719
stuff look at the condyne study you know

2106
01:18:14,950 --> 01:18:13,120
you've got a very clear conclusion there

2107
01:18:16,870 --> 01:18:14,960
basically these things exist and we

2108
01:18:19,110 --> 01:18:16,880
don't have a clue what they are that to

2109
01:18:20,390 --> 01:18:19,120
me is an amazing

2110
01:18:23,430 --> 01:18:20,400
uh discipline

2111
01:18:26,149 --> 01:18:23,440
so when i read that in 2006 you know my

2112
01:18:27,910 --> 01:18:26,159
sweaty hands was all over

2113
01:18:30,550 --> 01:18:27,920
i just thought this is amazing you know

2114
01:18:33,750 --> 01:18:30,560
wait until ufology is gonna sort of like

2115
01:18:35,350 --> 01:18:33,760
be amazed and the reaction i got was oh

2116
01:18:37,830 --> 01:18:35,360
well it's not aliens we're not

2117
01:18:39,750 --> 01:18:37,840
interested

2118
01:18:41,910 --> 01:18:39,760
that's crazy and the media the way the

2119
01:18:44,790 --> 01:18:41,920
media covered it was oh it's all a big

2120
01:18:46,390 --> 01:18:44,800
ball of gas big load of hot air you know

2121
01:18:49,830 --> 01:18:46,400
the plasma thing

2122
01:18:52,070 --> 01:18:49,840
off people didn't want to hear about

2123
01:18:53,110 --> 01:18:52,080
plasmas plasmas aren't sexy we want

2124
01:18:56,950 --> 01:18:53,120
aliens

2125
01:18:58,630 --> 01:18:56,960
the whitewashing that cover up but

2126
01:19:00,950 --> 01:18:58,640
that really is throwing out the baby

2127
01:19:02,870 --> 01:19:00,960
with the bathwater of course

2128
01:19:04,390 --> 01:19:02,880
yeah absolutely

2129
01:19:07,830 --> 01:19:04,400
i mean this is what we should have got

2130
01:19:09,590 --> 01:19:07,840
in 2021 from the uap task force report

2131
01:19:11,669 --> 01:19:09,600
that kind of statement that paragraph

2132
01:19:12,950 --> 01:19:11,679
would have been better than six pages

2133
01:19:13,220 --> 01:19:12,960
yep

2134
01:19:15,110 --> 01:19:13,230
yeah

2135
01:19:16,950 --> 01:19:15,120
[Laughter]

2136
01:19:18,790 --> 01:19:16,960
so um yeah if i think if you go a bit

2137
01:19:21,030 --> 01:19:18,800
further you'll get to the um you'll get

2138
01:19:23,750 --> 01:19:21,040
to the conclusions yeah so yeah this is

2139
01:19:24,870 --> 01:19:23,760
quite interesting summary of findings

2140
01:19:26,709 --> 01:19:24,880
so

2141
01:19:28,310 --> 01:19:26,719
what he says there based on all the

2142
01:19:30,310 --> 01:19:28,320
available evidence remaining in the

2143
01:19:31,189 --> 01:19:30,320
department reported over the last 30

2144
01:19:33,510 --> 01:19:31,199
years

2145
01:19:35,430 --> 01:19:33,520
uh i mean all a lot of the evidential

2146
01:19:36,950 --> 01:19:35,440
sort of sightings from pilots and things

2147
01:19:38,070 --> 01:19:36,960
he didn't see because they'd all been

2148
01:19:41,510 --> 01:19:38,080
destroyed

2149
01:19:43,189 --> 01:19:41,520
yeah um the earlier reports from the 50s

2150
01:19:45,910 --> 01:19:43,199
but he says um

2151
01:19:47,270 --> 01:19:45,920
causes of uap reports and if you compare

2152
01:19:48,950 --> 01:19:47,280
what he says here to what's in the

2153
01:19:50,470 --> 01:19:48,960
pentagon study

2154
01:19:52,149 --> 01:19:50,480
it's it's basically

2155
01:19:54,310 --> 01:19:52,159
he could have written it himself it's

2156
01:19:56,470 --> 01:19:54,320
like yeah misreporting of man-made

2157
01:19:58,709 --> 01:19:56,480
vehicles often observed by perfectly

2158
01:20:00,950 --> 01:19:58,719
credible witnesses but with unfamiliar

2159
01:20:02,790 --> 01:20:00,960
or abnormal features or in unusual

2160
01:20:05,110 --> 01:20:02,800
circumstances

2161
01:20:06,790 --> 01:20:05,120
reports of natural but not unusual

2162
01:20:08,550 --> 01:20:06,800
phenomena which are genuinely

2163
01:20:10,790 --> 01:20:08,560
misunderstood at the time by the

2164
01:20:13,510 --> 01:20:10,800
observer you know like flocks of birds

2165
01:20:15,990 --> 01:20:13,520
sun dogs and that kind of thing

2166
01:20:18,470 --> 01:20:16,000
and then we get to the the meat the

2167
01:20:20,550 --> 01:20:18,480
incidence of natural but relatively rare

2168
01:20:22,550 --> 01:20:20,560
phenomena and these may be increasing

2169
01:20:25,830 --> 01:20:22,560
due to natural changes and possibly

2170
01:20:28,149 --> 01:20:25,840
accelerated by man aided fact factors

2171
01:20:30,229 --> 01:20:28,159
such as smoke and dust so he's talking

2172
01:20:32,950 --> 01:20:30,239
about these dusty plasmas

2173
01:20:34,709 --> 01:20:32,960
yeah so he then says there's no evidence

2174
01:20:36,709 --> 01:20:34,719
to associate the phenomena with any

2175
01:20:37,990 --> 01:20:36,719
particular nation so he's saying there's

2176
01:20:39,350 --> 01:20:38,000
no evidence it's the russians or the

2177
01:20:41,669 --> 01:20:39,360
chinese

2178
01:20:44,709 --> 01:20:41,679
no evidence to suggest the phenomena are

2179
01:20:47,189 --> 01:20:44,719
hostile or under any type of control

2180
01:20:49,750 --> 01:20:47,199
other than that of natural physical

2181
01:20:51,830 --> 01:20:49,760
forces and evidence suggests that

2182
01:20:53,910 --> 01:20:51,840
meteors and their well-known effects and

2183
01:20:56,550 --> 01:20:53,920
possibly some other less-known effects

2184
01:20:58,550 --> 01:20:56,560
are responsible for some uap so this is

2185
01:21:01,189 --> 01:20:58,560
this bizarre idea that like meteors

2186
01:21:02,550 --> 01:21:01,199
impacting on the um upper atmosphere

2187
01:21:05,270 --> 01:21:02,560
that they get this sort of buoyant

2188
01:21:07,990 --> 01:21:05,280
plasmas that can sort of survive for

2189
01:21:09,830 --> 01:21:08,000
lengthy periods of time can drop towards

2190
01:21:12,149 --> 01:21:09,840
the earth and this is what has been seen

2191
01:21:14,790 --> 01:21:12,159
by pilots and possibly even by people on

2192
01:21:17,669 --> 01:21:14,800
the ground yep and i'm sorry it's

2193
01:21:17,679 --> 01:21:21,990
nice idea but uh no cigar

2194
01:21:24,870 --> 01:21:23,189
absolutely

2195
01:21:26,229 --> 01:21:24,880
yeah i'd rather go with aliens i'm

2196
01:21:28,470 --> 01:21:26,239
afraid i think there's more evidence of

2197
01:21:29,830 --> 01:21:28,480
that and there is dusty plasmas but you

2198
01:21:32,550 --> 01:21:29,840
know there you go

2199
01:21:35,430 --> 01:21:32,560
um is there another page

2200
01:21:36,310 --> 01:21:35,440
there is conclusions

2201
01:21:38,229 --> 01:21:36,320
uh

2202
01:21:40,310 --> 01:21:38,239
let's start there yeah that's the key

2203
01:21:43,270 --> 01:21:40,320
bit there study recommendations this is

2204
01:21:45,669 --> 01:21:43,280
what i was talking about so

2205
01:21:47,750 --> 01:21:45,679
the key recommendation this is the only

2206
01:21:49,990 --> 01:21:47,760
one the mod acted upon because he made a

2207
01:21:50,870 --> 01:21:50,000
lot of other recommendations about

2208
01:21:52,390 --> 01:21:50,880
um

2209
01:21:55,270 --> 01:21:52,400
because he there was a lot of stuff

2210
01:21:57,270 --> 01:21:55,280
about near collisions between um uaps

2211
01:21:59,189 --> 01:21:57,280
and civil aircraft he did a whole sort

2212
01:22:02,470 --> 01:21:59,199
of database study of

2213
01:22:04,070 --> 01:22:02,480
k unexplained cases where raf um

2214
01:22:06,629 --> 01:22:04,080
aircraft had crashed and there was no

2215
01:22:08,390 --> 01:22:06,639
explanation and he actually tried to see

2216
01:22:11,430 --> 01:22:08,400
if there was any correlation between

2217
01:22:13,350 --> 01:22:11,440
those unexplained aircraft crashes and

2218
01:22:15,510 --> 01:22:13,360
sightings of uaps from the from the

2219
01:22:17,510 --> 01:22:15,520
computer database

2220
01:22:19,590 --> 01:22:17,520
all that all the recommendations from

2221
01:22:21,189 --> 01:22:19,600
that they just ignored the only one they

2222
01:22:22,870 --> 01:22:21,199
were interested in is this one here it

2223
01:22:26,709 --> 01:22:22,880
should no longer be a requirement for

2224
01:22:28,470 --> 01:22:26,719
di55 to monitor uap reports

2225
01:22:31,110 --> 01:22:28,480
so that's basically what he was told to

2226
01:22:33,830 --> 01:22:31,120
say and come up with and

2227
01:22:36,310 --> 01:22:33,840
as a result of that the i-55 then wrote

2228
01:22:39,350 --> 01:22:36,320
to the sec as and said don't send us any

2229
01:22:42,390 --> 01:22:39,360
more of those ufo reports

2230
01:22:44,070 --> 01:22:42,400
so they effectively remove themselves

2231
01:22:47,350 --> 01:22:44,080
from um

2232
01:22:48,070 --> 01:22:47,360
the mods the formal ufo sort of studies

2233
01:22:51,430 --> 01:22:48,080
so

2234
01:22:53,590 --> 01:22:51,440
yeah um what remained of the ufo dj

2235
01:22:55,430 --> 01:22:53,600
desk carried on trundled on you know

2236
01:22:57,189 --> 01:22:55,440
with the famous answer phone for another

2237
01:22:59,669 --> 01:22:57,199
nine years

2238
01:23:01,750 --> 01:22:59,679
the raf component you know the radar

2239
01:23:04,550 --> 01:23:01,760
people they kept they were on board

2240
01:23:06,629 --> 01:23:04,560
until 2009 and then we went through we

2241
01:23:07,669 --> 01:23:06,639
had the financial crash under gordon

2242
01:23:09,030 --> 01:23:07,679
brown

2243
01:23:11,590 --> 01:23:09,040
massive cuts

2244
01:23:13,430 --> 01:23:11,600
and someone somewhere said why on earth

2245
01:23:16,229 --> 01:23:13,440
are we paying someone

2246
01:23:18,709 --> 01:23:16,239
to um have an answer phone with that for

2247
01:23:20,709 --> 01:23:18,719
people reporting ufo reports we're not

2248
01:23:22,950 --> 01:23:20,719
interested in what the public see all

2249
01:23:25,270 --> 01:23:22,960
we're interested in is is there anything

2250
01:23:26,709 --> 01:23:25,280
on radar that we can't identify because

2251
01:23:28,790 --> 01:23:26,719
that is something we need to worry about

2252
01:23:29,510 --> 01:23:28,800
so they just said shut it down you know

2253
01:23:35,110 --> 01:23:29,520
it's

2254
01:23:36,709 --> 01:23:35,120
because simply having a ufo desk and a

2255
01:23:40,149 --> 01:23:36,719
ufo hotline

2256
01:23:41,110 --> 01:23:40,159
invites people like me and you vinny to

2257
01:23:42,149 --> 01:23:41,120
hassle

2258
01:23:44,390 --> 01:23:42,159
and say

2259
01:23:46,070 --> 01:23:44,400
you know send us what you've collected

2260
01:23:47,510 --> 01:23:46,080
you know did you get a report about this

2261
01:23:50,149 --> 01:23:47,520
did you get a report about that and then

2262
01:23:51,510 --> 01:23:50,159
they have to pay someone to respond

2263
01:23:53,750 --> 01:23:51,520
which is costing them money which they

2264
01:23:55,430 --> 01:23:53,760
don't want to spend so we just shut the

2265
01:23:58,550 --> 01:23:55,440
whole thing down now

2266
01:23:59,590 --> 01:23:58,560
i've since learned the i-55 no longer

2267
01:24:01,030 --> 01:23:59,600
exists

2268
01:24:03,510 --> 01:24:01,040
so um

2269
01:24:05,750 --> 01:24:03,520
and i think that is a direct result of

2270
01:24:07,910 --> 01:24:05,760
all this business coming out about their

2271
01:24:10,149 --> 01:24:07,920
interest in ufos i think it just

2272
01:24:12,390 --> 01:24:10,159
it's it's become such a well-known term

2273
01:24:14,149 --> 01:24:12,400
even though 74

2274
01:24:15,510 --> 01:24:14,159
of your um

2275
01:24:18,709 --> 01:24:15,520
people who are tuning in tonight have

2276
01:24:20,550 --> 01:24:18,719
never heard of di55 um it's all over

2277
01:24:22,470 --> 01:24:20,560
it's been all over the media for years

2278
01:24:24,550 --> 01:24:22,480
that they are they were the ufo

2279
01:24:25,990 --> 01:24:24,560
investigation agency for the mod and i

2280
01:24:27,910 --> 01:24:26,000
just think it's embarrassing so they've

2281
01:24:30,790 --> 01:24:27,920
just made it go away

2282
01:24:40,310 --> 01:24:30,800
they disappeared it

2283
01:24:45,030 --> 01:24:43,030
that there is an agency that used to be

2284
01:24:46,790 --> 01:24:45,040
called the i-55 that is still

2285
01:24:47,990 --> 01:24:46,800
investigating ufos they just called it

2286
01:24:50,070 --> 01:24:48,000
something different and moved it

2287
01:24:51,590 --> 01:24:50,080
somewhere else in the mod

2288
01:24:53,750 --> 01:24:51,600
just that was just about what i was

2289
01:24:55,910 --> 01:24:53,760
going to ask you exactly that question

2290
01:24:57,669 --> 01:24:55,920
do you think they've evolved into a new

2291
01:24:58,950 --> 01:24:57,679
again like we've seen it so many times

2292
01:25:00,629 --> 01:24:58,960
change the name

2293
01:25:01,910 --> 01:25:00,639
yep and that's it

2294
01:25:04,310 --> 01:25:01,920
absolutely

2295
01:25:05,990 --> 01:25:04,320
and a good way of hiding something

2296
01:25:07,669 --> 01:25:06,000
from freedom of information even though

2297
01:25:10,229 --> 01:25:07,679
they've completely hobbled freedom of

2298
01:25:11,990 --> 01:25:10,239
information anyway and they can now say

2299
01:25:14,629 --> 01:25:12,000
sorry we can't respond to you because of

2300
01:25:16,229 --> 01:25:14,639
covid that's the latest excuse you know

2301
01:25:17,590 --> 01:25:16,239
we can't go looking through these files

2302
01:25:21,030 --> 01:25:17,600
because it's dangerous because they

2303
01:25:22,310 --> 01:25:21,040
might be covered in the in the files

2304
01:25:24,550 --> 01:25:22,320
that honestly that is what they're

2305
01:25:26,629 --> 01:25:24,560
saying now but um

2306
01:25:29,030 --> 01:25:26,639
i think they're hiding it maybe they're

2307
01:25:31,430 --> 01:25:29,040
using contractors from private industry

2308
01:25:33,910 --> 01:25:31,440
to do this so that they can say oh this

2309
01:25:35,750 --> 01:25:33,920
is not um something the mod are doing

2310
01:25:37,510 --> 01:25:35,760
true you know because we're paying

2311
01:25:39,189 --> 01:25:37,520
someone else a private contractor to do

2312
01:25:41,110 --> 01:25:39,199
it on our behalf

2313
01:25:42,709 --> 01:25:41,120
um but we've definitely got um some

2314
01:25:45,910 --> 01:25:42,719
agency that's looking at the more

2315
01:25:47,110 --> 01:25:45,920
evidential sightings and and the all

2316
01:25:48,629 --> 01:25:47,120
these sort of

2317
01:25:50,629 --> 01:25:48,639
statements that they make about we're

2318
01:25:53,110 --> 01:25:50,639
not we're not following the americans i

2319
01:25:55,189 --> 01:25:53,120
don't believe it for a minute

2320
01:25:58,390 --> 01:25:55,199
i completely agree i absolutely

2321
01:25:59,910 --> 01:25:58,400
completely agree and i've done

2322
01:26:01,430 --> 01:25:59,920
0.01

2323
01:26:03,270 --> 01:26:01,440
of the research compared to what you've

2324
01:26:05,590 --> 01:26:03,280
done with regards to the

2325
01:26:07,510 --> 01:26:05,600
digging in the files and i mean i spent

2326
01:26:09,030 --> 01:26:07,520
many years ago back in the national

2327
01:26:13,350 --> 01:26:09,040
archives

2328
01:26:14,470 --> 01:26:13,360
i think 2013 you know after 20 2008 9 10

2329
01:26:17,030 --> 01:26:14,480
and when they were dropping them

2330
01:26:18,950 --> 01:26:17,040
regularly those years i was i dug

2331
01:26:20,470 --> 01:26:18,960
through all of those but

2332
01:26:22,229 --> 01:26:20,480
i didn't do what you did and put

2333
01:26:23,910 --> 01:26:22,239
together a database and start linking

2334
01:26:25,030 --> 01:26:23,920
threads and stuff like that i mean

2335
01:26:27,189 --> 01:26:25,040
that's

2336
01:26:28,550 --> 01:26:27,199
serious work and um

2337
01:26:29,990 --> 01:26:28,560
but what i would say

2338
01:26:32,070 --> 01:26:30,000
well you know what you know this um

2339
01:26:34,229 --> 01:26:32,080
computer database that they use to

2340
01:26:35,830 --> 01:26:34,239
create the combine report they destroyed

2341
01:26:37,270 --> 01:26:35,840
that because i tried to get all of the

2342
01:26:38,629 --> 01:26:37,280
hard drive

2343
01:26:40,310 --> 01:26:38,639
um i actually made a freedom of

2344
01:26:42,070 --> 01:26:40,320
information requests for the excel

2345
01:26:43,189 --> 01:26:42,080
spreadsheet which you're quite entitled

2346
01:26:45,030 --> 01:26:43,199
to do

2347
01:26:47,430 --> 01:26:45,040
because it actually used and it turned

2348
01:26:48,950 --> 01:26:47,440
out that he'd been asked to destroy it

2349
01:26:51,110 --> 01:26:48,960
so after spending all that time and

2350
01:26:54,070 --> 01:26:51,120
money actually inputting god knows how

2351
01:26:55,590 --> 01:26:54,080
many hundred thousand reports from 1987

2352
01:26:57,189 --> 01:26:55,600
to 1997

2353
01:26:59,350 --> 01:26:57,199
he scrutinized it and produced all this

2354
01:27:00,790 --> 01:26:59,360
sort of data and then

2355
01:27:02,950 --> 01:27:00,800
destroyed it

2356
01:27:04,629 --> 01:27:02,960
but doesn't it make sense that do 55 and

2357
01:27:06,950 --> 01:27:04,639
a lot of their data and information then

2358
01:27:08,070 --> 01:27:06,960
went on to this

2359
01:27:10,310 --> 01:27:08,080
new

2360
01:27:12,870 --> 01:27:10,320
whoever they are they probably have it

2361
01:27:14,390 --> 01:27:12,880
whoever they are and then the i-55 got

2362
01:27:16,629 --> 01:27:14,400
rid of everything so in

2363
01:27:18,470 --> 01:27:16,639
what we see it is gone

2364
01:27:19,750 --> 01:27:18,480
but maybe it's not

2365
01:27:21,350 --> 01:27:19,760
but the thing is

2366
01:27:22,870 --> 01:27:21,360
what i should say about the data that

2367
01:27:24,550 --> 01:27:22,880
was inputted you must have heard the

2368
01:27:28,229 --> 01:27:24,560
phrase if you put rubbish in you get

2369
01:27:31,189 --> 01:27:28,239
rubbish out of a database yeah well this

2370
01:27:33,110 --> 01:27:31,199
again despite what nick says i mean if

2371
01:27:35,270 --> 01:27:33,120
you look at the you only have to go and

2372
01:27:37,189 --> 01:27:35,280
look through some of those documents

2373
01:27:39,590 --> 01:27:37,199
you've seen them haven't you you open

2374
01:27:40,709 --> 01:27:39,600
those i've got loads i photographed

2375
01:27:43,030 --> 01:27:40,719
stacks

2376
01:27:46,709 --> 01:27:43,040
well just just look at any of those

2377
01:27:49,189 --> 01:27:46,719
individual so-called sightings if the

2378
01:27:50,629 --> 01:27:49,199
quality of them is appalling you've got

2379
01:27:52,950 --> 01:27:50,639
this you've got like this standard

2380
01:27:56,470 --> 01:27:52,960
questionnaire on your abc oh yeah yeah

2381
01:27:58,390 --> 01:27:56,480
oh yeah yeah i've got the forms

2382
01:28:00,149 --> 01:27:58,400
with the standard letter

2383
01:28:02,870 --> 01:28:00,159
to the person who made the report saying

2384
01:28:05,110 --> 01:28:02,880
thank you for your inciting

2385
01:28:07,110 --> 01:28:05,120
uh you know standards sort of go away

2386
01:28:08,149 --> 01:28:07,120
and don't come back sort of thing

2387
01:28:10,149 --> 01:28:08,159
and

2388
01:28:11,110 --> 01:28:10,159
i would say i mean from the ones that

2389
01:28:13,189 --> 01:28:11,120
you've seen

2390
01:28:15,270 --> 01:28:13,199
were there any that had showed any

2391
01:28:17,590 --> 01:28:15,280
evidence of being properly followed up

2392
01:28:20,229 --> 01:28:17,600
as opposed to just looked at and put in

2393
01:28:21,990 --> 01:28:20,239
a filing cabinet no absolutely none but

2394
01:28:23,430 --> 01:28:22,000
i mean there were some very compelling

2395
01:28:25,510 --> 01:28:23,440
cases but

2396
01:28:26,629 --> 01:28:25,520
all it was was a lot of people writing

2397
01:28:28,629 --> 01:28:26,639
in with

2398
01:28:30,629 --> 01:28:28,639
pictures drawings things they'd seen

2399
01:28:32,870 --> 01:28:30,639
statements really in depth statements

2400
01:28:34,550 --> 01:28:32,880
multiple witness statements

2401
01:28:36,950 --> 01:28:34,560
but zero evidence they were that they

2402
01:28:38,870 --> 01:28:36,960
were looked into by anyone within

2403
01:28:40,470 --> 01:28:38,880
within di55 or the intelligence

2404
01:28:42,390 --> 01:28:40,480
community

2405
01:28:44,550 --> 01:28:42,400
there were

2406
01:28:46,629 --> 01:28:44,560
were the ones occasionally ones reported

2407
01:28:49,030 --> 01:28:46,639
by military witnesses

2408
01:28:50,629 --> 01:28:49,040
um so so the point i'm trying to make is

2409
01:28:52,550 --> 01:28:50,639
when he was inputting all this stuff

2410
01:28:55,830 --> 01:28:52,560
into his excel spreadsheet

2411
01:28:57,510 --> 01:28:55,840
all the data was useless because no one

2412
01:29:00,709 --> 01:28:57,520
had investigated it so what he was

2413
01:29:02,629 --> 01:29:00,719
inputting lots of it most ufologists

2414
01:29:04,629 --> 01:29:02,639
would accept that

2415
01:29:06,550 --> 01:29:04,639
in terms of like the numbers of ufo

2416
01:29:08,870 --> 01:29:06,560
reports raw data

2417
01:29:11,270 --> 01:29:08,880
people seeing lights in the sky

2418
01:29:13,590 --> 01:29:11,280
briefly seeing objects in daylight

2419
01:29:15,590 --> 01:29:13,600
anyone who's investigated

2420
01:29:18,629 --> 01:29:15,600
and followed them up will know that 90

2421
01:29:22,470 --> 01:29:18,639
to 95 of that raw data

2422
01:29:24,629 --> 01:29:22,480
is ifos you can easily identify what's

2423
01:29:27,510 --> 01:29:24,639
seen if you do an investigation as they

2424
01:29:30,870 --> 01:29:27,520
didn't investigate all that data that

2425
01:29:33,030 --> 01:29:30,880
ron haddo inputted into his excel 90 of

2426
01:29:35,430 --> 01:29:33,040
it was noise

2427
01:29:36,950 --> 01:29:35,440
therefore the conclusions he reached i

2428
01:29:38,629 --> 01:29:36,960
mean this is basic scientific

2429
01:29:40,790 --> 01:29:38,639
methodology i get students doing this

2430
01:29:42,470 --> 01:29:40,800
kind of thing all the time if if a

2431
01:29:47,750 --> 01:29:42,480
student had gone off and done something

2432
01:29:51,189 --> 01:29:48,870
it was

2433
01:29:52,870 --> 01:29:51,199
it's not scientific and yet he's trying

2434
01:29:54,950 --> 01:29:52,880
to make it out it was some sort of a

2435
01:29:58,470 --> 01:29:54,960
scientific study it wasn't science it

2436
01:30:00,709 --> 01:29:58,480
was totally methodologically flawed so

2437
01:30:02,470 --> 01:30:00,719
because all the data that's coming in is

2438
01:30:04,550 --> 01:30:02,480
inputting his noise therefore what's

2439
01:30:06,390 --> 01:30:04,560
coming out the other side in terms of

2440
01:30:07,189 --> 01:30:06,400
analysis and scrutiny

2441
01:30:09,830 --> 01:30:07,199
is

2442
01:30:11,830 --> 01:30:09,840
useless because it's based upon masses

2443
01:30:14,629 --> 01:30:11,840
of different things like birds

2444
01:30:16,950 --> 01:30:14,639
meteorites that were never properly

2445
01:30:19,430 --> 01:30:16,960
investigated in the first place

2446
01:30:20,390 --> 01:30:19,440
so it's great that he did the study and

2447
01:30:22,390 --> 01:30:20,400
it's great that he reached the

2448
01:30:24,070 --> 01:30:22,400
conclusion that these things there are

2449
01:30:26,390 --> 01:30:24,080
things that can't be explained but the

2450
01:30:28,390 --> 01:30:26,400
actual methodology you used was totally

2451
01:30:31,270 --> 01:30:28,400
flawed and what i'd like to do

2452
01:30:34,790 --> 01:30:31,280
is um because all that data that you use

2453
01:30:37,030 --> 01:30:34,800
has survived those raw that raw data

2454
01:30:39,430 --> 01:30:37,040
what i'd like to do is set up a

2455
01:30:41,110 --> 01:30:39,440
duplicate of his excel spreadsheet input

2456
01:30:44,310 --> 01:30:41,120
all that data again

2457
01:30:45,910 --> 01:30:44,320
and then re-run the program and i bet

2458
01:30:47,669 --> 01:30:45,920
you anything you come up with far better

2459
01:30:49,030 --> 01:30:47,679
conclusions

2460
01:30:51,910 --> 01:30:49,040
then he didn't

2461
01:30:54,070 --> 01:30:51,920
yeah makes absolute sense

2462
01:30:56,629 --> 01:30:54,080
that's a job for someone um if you're if

2463
01:31:00,070 --> 01:30:56,639
you want a research project

2464
01:31:05,590 --> 01:31:02,550
the interesting thing is condy

2465
01:31:08,709 --> 01:31:05,600
now people ask what does condy mean

2466
01:31:10,470 --> 01:31:08,719
and i asked linda unwin this when um

2467
01:31:12,310 --> 01:31:10,480
i went to collect the report why did you

2468
01:31:14,310 --> 01:31:12,320
choose condone and because the

2469
01:31:16,229 --> 01:31:14,320
similarity with condom you know the

2470
01:31:17,669 --> 01:31:16,239
university colorado report the project

2471
01:31:20,629 --> 01:31:17,679
blue of course at the end of blue book

2472
01:31:22,070 --> 01:31:20,639
yeah yeah and she just said oh um we use

2473
01:31:23,830 --> 01:31:22,080
we use code words all the time and

2474
01:31:25,510 --> 01:31:23,840
they're just randomly generated by

2475
01:31:27,510 --> 01:31:25,520
computer

2476
01:31:30,550 --> 01:31:27,520
and i thought hmm

2477
01:31:31,990 --> 01:31:30,560
really but why why

2478
01:31:34,629 --> 01:31:32,000
so i looked in the oxford english

2479
01:31:37,030 --> 01:31:34,639
dictionary for what the word condy means

2480
01:31:39,990 --> 01:31:37,040
and it actually means a severe beating

2481
01:31:44,310 --> 01:31:42,310
now whether by coincidence or not if you

2482
01:31:46,950 --> 01:31:44,320
think about what i what these the people

2483
01:31:48,390 --> 01:31:46,960
who are running um these things actually

2484
01:31:50,070 --> 01:31:48,400
thought about it

2485
01:31:51,510 --> 01:31:50,080
you know this is something we don't want

2486
01:31:53,350 --> 01:31:51,520
to be drawn into this is something

2487
01:31:56,229 --> 01:31:53,360
that's been hanging over us for the last

2488
01:31:58,390 --> 01:31:56,239
50 years it's a pain in the butt we want

2489
01:32:01,030 --> 01:31:58,400
to get rid of it it's strange that the

2490
01:32:04,550 --> 01:32:01,040
code name the project um condy which

2491
01:32:06,550 --> 01:32:04,560
means a severe beating well deserved

2492
01:32:08,629 --> 01:32:06,560
wow coincidence

2493
01:32:10,390 --> 01:32:08,639
says a lot

2494
01:32:12,470 --> 01:32:10,400
they're still being beaten now and i

2495
01:32:14,390 --> 01:32:12,480
think they deserve it as well because i

2496
01:32:16,629 --> 01:32:14,400
i think the the way that they've gone

2497
01:32:18,950 --> 01:32:16,639
about um trying to

2498
01:32:22,629 --> 01:32:18,960
conceal their interest in this subject

2499
01:32:25,430 --> 01:32:22,639
and the the fact that destroyed swathes

2500
01:32:27,510 --> 01:32:25,440
of paperwork on the subject that yeah

2501
01:32:28,790 --> 01:32:27,520
all this a lot of this speculation that

2502
01:32:30,390 --> 01:32:28,800
goes on about what went on with the

2503
01:32:32,390 --> 01:32:30,400
rental ship incident what went on with

2504
01:32:34,390 --> 01:32:32,400
this thing in the 1950s the bexley heath

2505
01:32:36,870 --> 01:32:34,400
thing that you were talking about

2506
01:32:39,110 --> 01:32:36,880
yeah you know the fact that they've

2507
01:32:42,470 --> 01:32:39,120
magicked all this stuff away and hidden

2508
01:32:44,790 --> 01:32:42,480
it and destroyed it has simply increased

2509
01:32:47,189 --> 01:32:44,800
um people's suspicions of what why they

2510
01:32:48,390 --> 01:32:47,199
did that you know so effectively they've

2511
01:32:50,709 --> 01:32:48,400
fashioned

2512
01:32:52,310 --> 01:32:50,719
the battle with which the ufologists are

2513
01:32:54,149 --> 01:32:52,320
now hammering them over their head with

2514
01:32:56,870 --> 01:32:54,159
you know it's their own fault through

2515
01:32:57,590 --> 01:32:56,880
their own paranoia and incompetence

2516
01:33:00,470 --> 01:32:57,600
and

2517
01:33:01,990 --> 01:33:00,480
that inconvenient truth of the matter

2518
01:33:03,910 --> 01:33:02,000
yeah totally

2519
01:33:05,590 --> 01:33:03,920
um i'm going to jump to a couple of

2520
01:33:07,990 --> 01:33:05,600
points i've just highlighted here from

2521
01:33:09,270 --> 01:33:08,000
the chat throughout the the last hour

2522
01:33:11,510 --> 01:33:09,280
and a half

2523
01:33:14,070 --> 01:33:11,520
my good friend steph um shout out to

2524
01:33:15,669 --> 01:33:14,080
steph is saying ask about the sheffield

2525
01:33:17,910 --> 01:33:15,679
1997

2526
01:33:19,270 --> 01:33:17,920
howden moore case yeah

2527
01:33:21,270 --> 01:33:19,280
he was actually

2528
01:33:22,950 --> 01:33:21,280
he he i met steph a few years ago he's

2529
01:33:25,590 --> 01:33:22,960
actually a good friend of mine he was

2530
01:33:27,270 --> 01:33:25,600
underneath that ufo very close and he

2531
01:33:29,430 --> 01:33:27,280
always told me about it and

2532
01:33:31,830 --> 01:33:29,440
so shout out to you steph i'd love to

2533
01:33:33,350 --> 01:33:31,840
know something happened yeah um

2534
01:33:34,870 --> 01:33:33,360
again i was working on the local paper

2535
01:33:37,510 --> 01:33:34,880
at the time and there was a load of

2536
01:33:39,830 --> 01:33:37,520
reports sonic booms that were heard

2537
01:33:41,910 --> 01:33:39,840
um i got questions i managed to persuade

2538
01:33:43,990 --> 01:33:41,920
my mp at the time helen jackson to ask

2539
01:33:44,870 --> 01:33:44,000
and get questions in parliament about it

2540
01:33:46,950 --> 01:33:44,880
and

2541
01:33:49,350 --> 01:33:46,960
basically something went on it was some

2542
01:33:52,629 --> 01:33:49,360
kind of military exercise um

2543
01:33:55,110 --> 01:33:52,639
it's illegal to um to to break the sound

2544
01:33:56,870 --> 01:33:55,120
barrier over land and yeah they were up

2545
01:33:59,270 --> 01:33:56,880
to something that day whether they were

2546
01:34:01,430 --> 01:33:59,280
pursuing something whether it was a

2547
01:34:03,110 --> 01:34:01,440
an exercise that went wrong

2548
01:34:05,510 --> 01:34:03,120
um but something happened nothing

2549
01:34:06,390 --> 01:34:05,520
crashed there was all kinds of ludicrous

2550
01:34:10,550 --> 01:34:06,400
um

2551
01:34:13,430 --> 01:34:10,560
things falling into reservoirs and

2552
01:34:16,629 --> 01:34:13,440
things but um i i interviewed i think it

2553
01:34:19,669 --> 01:34:16,639
was a there was a um wpc who had a

2554
01:34:21,750 --> 01:34:19,679
really close um sighting of this thing

2555
01:34:23,669 --> 01:34:21,760
and she said it was an aircraft

2556
01:34:25,510 --> 01:34:23,679
you know she saw it really close it

2557
01:34:27,830 --> 01:34:25,520
looked triangular because it was all lit

2558
01:34:29,669 --> 01:34:27,840
up bizarrely at night

2559
01:34:31,590 --> 01:34:29,679
um but there was there was no doubt it

2560
01:34:33,430 --> 01:34:31,600
was some kind of military exercise that

2561
01:34:35,270 --> 01:34:33,440
was covered up and that that

2562
01:34:36,950 --> 01:34:35,280
was what they admitted

2563
01:34:39,270 --> 01:34:36,960
um

2564
01:34:40,709 --> 01:34:39,280
to literally drag it out of them but

2565
01:34:41,990 --> 01:34:40,719
it's like this thing i was reading about

2566
01:34:44,709 --> 01:34:42,000
on facebook the other day have you heard

2567
01:34:48,709 --> 01:34:44,719
about the pentrich incident

2568
01:34:54,229 --> 01:34:51,590
sounds very similar military exercise

2569
01:34:55,990 --> 01:34:54,239
yeah some kind of military exercise yeah

2570
01:34:57,430 --> 01:34:56,000
yeah the the sheffield case i tried to

2571
01:34:59,510 --> 01:34:57,440
look into a few years ago and all i

2572
01:35:01,510 --> 01:34:59,520
could find that it was cited from sort

2573
01:35:02,629 --> 01:35:01,520
of north derbyshire into south yorkshire

2574
01:35:04,870 --> 01:35:02,639
there was very

2575
01:35:06,870 --> 01:35:04,880
scant information nothing that stood out

2576
01:35:09,189 --> 01:35:06,880
to really

2577
01:35:11,109 --> 01:35:09,199
say anything to me you know um so i

2578
01:35:12,070 --> 01:35:11,119
never formed a conclusion so yeah great

2579
01:35:13,109 --> 01:35:12,080
steph

2580
01:35:15,270 --> 01:35:13,119
i don't know if that's what you wanted

2581
01:35:16,870 --> 01:35:15,280
to hear or not but there you go um yeah

2582
01:35:19,270 --> 01:35:16,880
it's one of the it's one of the most

2583
01:35:21,590 --> 01:35:19,280
puzzling cases in the files but um like

2584
01:35:23,270 --> 01:35:21,600
i was saying about some of these others

2585
01:35:24,950 --> 01:35:23,280
you never get to hear about them because

2586
01:35:25,669 --> 01:35:24,960
all anyone wants to talk about is rental

2587
01:35:27,430 --> 01:35:25,679
ship

2588
01:35:29,189 --> 01:35:27,440
of course yeah

2589
01:35:31,510 --> 01:35:29,199
um let's move on to campbell campbell

2590
01:35:34,310 --> 01:35:31,520
thank you for the 10 donation campbell

2591
01:35:35,750 --> 01:35:34,320
says dr clark as a professor of folklore

2592
01:35:37,910 --> 01:35:35,760
can you share some of your thoughts

2593
01:35:40,550 --> 01:35:37,920
about the role that belief and cultural

2594
01:35:43,910 --> 01:35:40,560
context plays in shaping eyewitnesses

2595
01:35:45,750 --> 01:35:43,920
descriptions of ufo encounters yeah

2596
01:35:46,950 --> 01:35:45,760
this is one this is a really good one

2597
01:35:48,870 --> 01:35:46,960
yeah i mean

2598
01:35:50,709 --> 01:35:48,880
i should explain that like people often

2599
01:35:52,629 --> 01:35:50,719
think that when i talk about the subject

2600
01:35:55,189 --> 01:35:52,639
in the context of folklore and i sort of

2601
01:35:57,350 --> 01:35:55,199
say it's folklore it's like people think

2602
01:36:00,070 --> 01:35:57,360
that i'm dismissing it

2603
01:36:01,750 --> 01:36:00,080
by saying it's only folklore which isn't

2604
01:36:05,109 --> 01:36:01,760
what i'm saying at all folklore is

2605
01:36:06,709 --> 01:36:05,119
simply um people's stories and beliefs

2606
01:36:08,950 --> 01:36:06,719
and traditions and

2607
01:36:10,629 --> 01:36:08,960
whatever ufos are

2608
01:36:13,109 --> 01:36:10,639
um it what

2609
01:36:14,229 --> 01:36:13,119
i'm interested in as a folklorist is the

2610
01:36:17,990 --> 01:36:14,239
stories

2611
01:36:20,390 --> 01:36:18,000
what

2612
01:36:22,070 --> 01:36:20,400
these experiences that clearly are real

2613
01:36:24,229 --> 01:36:22,080
that happened to them that i'm not

2614
01:36:27,109 --> 01:36:24,239
dissing that at all there are people who

2615
01:36:29,109 --> 01:36:27,119
are um lying and hoaxing there's always

2616
01:36:30,709 --> 01:36:29,119
been people because

2617
01:36:32,629 --> 01:36:30,719
you know that the people who reckon

2618
01:36:35,030 --> 01:36:32,639
they've been to venus in the 1950s

2619
01:36:36,790 --> 01:36:35,040
george adamski either he was delusional

2620
01:36:38,550 --> 01:36:36,800
or he was lying or whatever there are

2621
01:36:40,550 --> 01:36:38,560
there's always been that but i'm

2622
01:36:43,030 --> 01:36:40,560
interested in all of it including the

2623
01:36:45,990 --> 01:36:43,040
contact t stories because they're all

2624
01:36:48,870 --> 01:36:46,000
part of like a cultural phenomenon which

2625
01:36:50,149 --> 01:36:48,880
you ufos actually are and what i'm doing

2626
01:36:50,870 --> 01:36:50,159
there is

2627
01:36:53,189 --> 01:36:50,880
not

2628
01:36:56,070 --> 01:36:53,199
stepping back from what they actually

2629
01:36:57,910 --> 01:36:56,080
are to how people have

2630
01:36:59,430 --> 01:36:57,920
written about them how they've

2631
01:37:01,189 --> 01:36:59,440
interpreted them how it's had that

2632
01:37:03,350 --> 01:37:01,199
impact on their lives and that's what

2633
01:37:05,189 --> 01:37:03,360
folklore studies

2634
01:37:06,550 --> 01:37:05,199
so i think

2635
01:37:08,950 --> 01:37:06,560
none of us know

2636
01:37:11,750 --> 01:37:08,960
what is really um at the heart of the

2637
01:37:14,550 --> 01:37:11,760
ufo phenomenon i i despite being a

2638
01:37:16,229 --> 01:37:14,560
skeptic i i i wouldn't have spent 30

2639
01:37:17,910 --> 01:37:16,239
years of my life

2640
01:37:19,910 --> 01:37:17,920
immersed in this subject if i thought it

2641
01:37:22,229 --> 01:37:19,920
was a load of nonsense there was nothing

2642
01:37:25,750 --> 01:37:22,239
nothing there but there's only so far

2643
01:37:27,830 --> 01:37:25,760
you can go with that and as a folklorist

2644
01:37:29,590 --> 01:37:27,840
i've just thought it's far better not to

2645
01:37:31,430 --> 01:37:29,600
engage with whether it's true or false

2646
01:37:33,189 --> 01:37:31,440
because what's true or false what might

2647
01:37:35,350 --> 01:37:33,199
be true

2648
01:37:37,350 --> 01:37:35,360
you know i'm more interested in

2649
01:37:39,590 --> 01:37:37,360
what these things are in terms of how

2650
01:37:41,270 --> 01:37:39,600
people tell stories about them and how

2651
01:37:43,350 --> 01:37:41,280
those stories evolve

2652
01:37:46,310 --> 01:37:43,360
over the years so that's what i mean by

2653
01:37:47,750 --> 01:37:46,320
its folklore there's no doubt it's it's

2654
01:37:49,350 --> 01:37:47,760
modern folklore i don't know whether

2655
01:37:51,189 --> 01:37:49,360
that answers the question but

2656
01:37:52,470 --> 01:37:51,199
um i've got a lot of flack and i still

2657
01:37:55,750 --> 01:37:52,480
keep getting a lot of flack over

2658
01:37:59,030 --> 01:37:55,760
something i said on some tv program

2659
01:38:06,149 --> 01:37:59,040
somewhere about um triangular ufos that

2660
01:38:10,070 --> 01:38:07,590
what people need to understand about

2661
01:38:11,510 --> 01:38:10,080
these tv programs is that

2662
01:38:17,030 --> 01:38:11,520
you go in and you film you know the

2663
01:38:20,310 --> 01:38:18,470
in london for i think it was like two

2664
01:38:22,229 --> 01:38:20,320
and a half hours

2665
01:38:23,030 --> 01:38:22,239
uh being interviewed for that program

2666
01:38:24,870 --> 01:38:23,040
and

2667
01:38:26,950 --> 01:38:24,880
if you watched it they probably used

2668
01:38:30,149 --> 01:38:26,960
less than a minute of what i said

2669
01:38:31,990 --> 01:38:30,159
heavily edited so when you hear people

2670
01:38:34,149 --> 01:38:32,000
talking on these programs the the the

2671
01:38:36,470 --> 01:38:34,159
producers and directors have just

2672
01:38:39,669 --> 01:38:36,480
cut tiny little snippets

2673
01:38:41,990 --> 01:38:39,679
out of it and often introduced and they

2674
01:38:43,430 --> 01:38:42,000
always have me and nick like me for i

2675
01:38:45,189 --> 01:38:43,440
say a little bit and then nick perk gets

2676
01:38:47,510 --> 01:38:45,199
five minutes then i get 30 seconds then

2677
01:38:49,590 --> 01:38:47,520
it's nick

2678
01:38:51,590 --> 01:38:49,600
they're trying the the the

2679
01:38:53,990 --> 01:38:51,600
the way it's presented you're often

2680
01:38:55,669 --> 01:38:54,000
quoted completely out of context of

2681
01:38:57,750 --> 01:38:55,679
course what all i was saying in terms of

2682
01:39:00,149 --> 01:38:57,760
like star wars and the cultural side of

2683
01:39:02,070 --> 01:39:00,159
it is simply that you can't ignore the

2684
01:39:03,030 --> 01:39:02,080
fact that there is a relationship

2685
01:39:05,430 --> 01:39:03,040
between

2686
01:39:08,070 --> 01:39:05,440
what how ufos and spacecraft and what

2687
01:39:10,390 --> 01:39:08,080
have you are depicted in popular culture

2688
01:39:13,270 --> 01:39:10,400
i.e in films tv

2689
01:39:15,590 --> 01:39:13,280
um books and magazines and what people

2690
01:39:17,430 --> 01:39:15,600
actually say they see

2691
01:39:19,910 --> 01:39:17,440
yeah because um if you go back to the

2692
01:39:22,229 --> 01:39:19,920
1940s and 50s if you saw an object in

2693
01:39:25,189 --> 01:39:22,239
the sky you couldn't identify it was a

2694
01:39:27,189 --> 01:39:25,199
flying saucer it was saucer shaped

2695
01:39:29,189 --> 01:39:27,199
this [\h__\h] that's what people thought was

2696
01:39:31,109 --> 01:39:29,199
the next big leap in aerodynamic

2697
01:39:32,870 --> 01:39:31,119
technology after the jets of the second

2698
01:39:35,750 --> 01:39:32,880
world war that's what was being depicted

2699
01:39:38,229 --> 01:39:35,760
on all the 1950s b movies like the daily

2700
01:39:40,550 --> 01:39:38,239
earth stood still um earth versus the

2701
01:39:42,790 --> 01:39:40,560
flying sources etc etc i mean people

2702
01:39:43,910 --> 01:39:42,800
were seeing cigar-shaped objects and

2703
01:39:46,870 --> 01:39:43,920
spheres

2704
01:39:48,790 --> 01:39:46,880
but the media created this image of the

2705
01:39:51,189 --> 01:39:48,800
flying saucer and then by the time we

2706
01:39:53,030 --> 01:39:51,199
get to the 1970s lo and behold

2707
01:39:55,109 --> 01:39:53,040
no one wants to see fine sources anymore

2708
01:39:57,189 --> 01:39:55,119
all these things are triangular shaped

2709
01:39:58,310 --> 01:39:57,199
now you can't get away from the fact

2710
01:40:01,189 --> 01:39:58,320
that

2711
01:40:03,189 --> 01:40:01,199
from about 1970s onwards into the 1980s

2712
01:40:05,590 --> 01:40:03,199
we got all these um

2713
01:40:08,149 --> 01:40:05,600
cultural images of triangular shaped

2714
01:40:11,030 --> 01:40:08,159
spacecraft x-files the very first

2715
01:40:13,270 --> 01:40:11,040
episode i know it was 1993 mulder breaks

2716
01:40:14,709 --> 01:40:13,280
into that airplane based until he sees

2717
01:40:18,709 --> 01:40:14,719
this triangle-shaped thing that comes

2718
01:40:21,030 --> 01:40:18,719
over him and beams down on the floor um

2719
01:40:24,149 --> 01:40:21,040
you've got as i said you've got the the

2720
01:40:26,470 --> 01:40:24,159
wedge-shaped um imperial star destroyers

2721
01:40:29,030 --> 01:40:26,480
from star wars and at the same time

2722
01:40:32,950 --> 01:40:29,040
you've got the images of the um the f1

2723
01:40:34,790 --> 01:40:32,960
117 stealth fighter the b2 bomber and

2724
01:40:37,510 --> 01:40:34,800
the cop there must be a connection

2725
01:40:39,910 --> 01:40:37,520
between those images of what a flying

2726
01:40:41,910 --> 01:40:39,920
saucer you should look like sorry ufo

2727
01:40:45,109 --> 01:40:41,920
should look like and suddenly people

2728
01:40:47,189 --> 01:40:45,119
seen lots of triangular objects and now

2729
01:40:48,310 --> 01:40:47,199
we've grown tired of triangular objects

2730
01:40:51,590 --> 01:40:48,320
we're now seeing things that are

2731
01:40:53,030 --> 01:40:51,600
tic-tac-shaped and pyramid-shaped and

2732
01:40:54,790 --> 01:40:53,040
when i when i was involved in that

2733
01:40:56,870 --> 01:40:54,800
american series what was it called the

2734
01:40:58,470 --> 01:40:56,880
the unidentified

2735
01:41:00,390 --> 01:40:58,480
and i was filming at the national

2736
01:41:03,270 --> 01:41:00,400
archives yeah and identified yeah with

2737
01:41:04,790 --> 01:41:03,280
uh ttsa and lou alexander yeah

2738
01:41:07,030 --> 01:41:04,800
honestly i struggled to watch some of

2739
01:41:08,870 --> 01:41:07,040
these um shows but i sat through i think

2740
01:41:11,030 --> 01:41:08,880
two episodes of it and it was i felt

2741
01:41:14,709 --> 01:41:11,040
like i was being hammered over the head

2742
01:41:17,350 --> 01:41:14,719
by someone say telling me ufos are tic

2743
01:41:19,430 --> 01:41:17,360
tac shaped it was over and over and over

2744
01:41:21,669 --> 01:41:19,440
again you know and now people have seen

2745
01:41:24,229 --> 01:41:21,679
tic-tac-shaped objects is it any wonder

2746
01:41:26,070 --> 01:41:24,239
that that's what they're being described

2747
01:41:27,510 --> 01:41:26,080
as so you can't get away from that sort

2748
01:41:29,030 --> 01:41:27,520
of call

2749
01:41:30,790 --> 01:41:29,040
and i get that but i mean i think what

2750
01:41:32,950 --> 01:41:30,800
people probably read into that snippet

2751
01:41:34,310 --> 01:41:32,960
was that that is what you were focused

2752
01:41:36,390 --> 01:41:34,320
on that is all you were saying and there

2753
01:41:37,669 --> 01:41:36,400
was no wider context that the tv show

2754
01:41:39,590 --> 01:41:37,679
didn't show

2755
01:41:41,270 --> 01:41:39,600
um and i'll just take this moment to

2756
01:41:43,669 --> 01:41:41,280
remind everyone in the chat to please

2757
01:41:45,030 --> 01:41:43,679
keep it nice and like polite we're all

2758
01:41:46,870 --> 01:41:45,040
about different opinions but if you

2759
01:41:48,870 --> 01:41:46,880
start throwing out a bit of shade you're

2760
01:41:51,109 --> 01:41:48,880
gonna get blocked you know this is about

2761
01:41:53,430 --> 01:41:51,119
mature conversation and we can have

2762
01:41:55,830 --> 01:41:53,440
differences of opinion but you know keep

2763
01:41:57,750 --> 01:41:55,840
it keep it polite please so

2764
01:41:59,350 --> 01:41:57,760
um i'm just gonna jump to these last

2765
01:42:02,149 --> 01:41:59,360
three questions i've got here from my

2766
01:42:03,590 --> 01:42:02,159
colleagues at uap media uk okay so uh

2767
01:42:04,950 --> 01:42:03,600
the first one comes from uh graeme

2768
01:42:08,390 --> 01:42:04,960
rendell

2769
01:42:10,550 --> 01:42:08,400
ah graham hello

2770
01:42:12,470 --> 01:42:10,560
he says how does dave think the uap

2771
01:42:14,790 --> 01:42:12,480
subject is going to develop over the

2772
01:42:16,709 --> 01:42:14,800
next few years

2773
01:42:20,390 --> 01:42:16,719
well i'll get my crystal ball out shall

2774
01:42:25,030 --> 01:42:21,430
um

2775
01:42:27,510 --> 01:42:25,040
think it's all going to be focused

2776
01:42:28,870 --> 01:42:27,520
around what becomes of this pentagon

2777
01:42:31,030 --> 01:42:28,880
investigation

2778
01:42:33,750 --> 01:42:31,040
and i really think that they've set

2779
01:42:35,669 --> 01:42:33,760
themselves up for a huge fall

2780
01:42:37,669 --> 01:42:35,679
in in doing what they've done

2781
01:42:40,310 --> 01:42:37,679
and i think effectively what we're going

2782
01:42:41,189 --> 01:42:40,320
to see is a rerun of project blue book

2783
01:42:42,790 --> 01:42:41,199
because

2784
01:42:44,950 --> 01:42:42,800
i know they're trying to sort of keep

2785
01:42:46,470 --> 01:42:44,960
out of the limelight and honestly the

2786
01:42:48,390 --> 01:42:46,480
acronyms

2787
01:42:50,229 --> 01:42:48,400
you know the last statement we made i

2788
01:42:53,270 --> 01:42:50,239
counted it must have been about 12

2789
01:42:54,390 --> 01:42:53,280
acronyms increasingly lengthy

2790
01:42:56,390 --> 01:42:54,400
i don't know if they're doing that to

2791
01:42:58,390 --> 01:42:56,400
throw us off the center a lot to make it

2792
01:43:00,470 --> 01:42:58,400
even more complicated than it already is

2793
01:43:02,550 --> 01:43:00,480
but at some stage because they've got

2794
01:43:04,310 --> 01:43:02,560
all this senate um interest in the

2795
01:43:06,070 --> 01:43:04,320
subject and massive sort of media

2796
01:43:07,430 --> 01:43:06,080
scrutiny they are going to have to come

2797
01:43:09,430 --> 01:43:07,440
up with something and that that

2798
01:43:13,109 --> 01:43:09,440
absolutely pathetic

2799
01:43:14,870 --> 01:43:13,119
report that they produced last um

2800
01:43:17,830 --> 01:43:14,880
last summer they are going to have to at

2801
01:43:20,310 --> 01:43:17,840
some point do a proper summary of what

2802
01:43:22,790 --> 01:43:20,320
they found and no

2803
01:43:24,709 --> 01:43:22,800
they cut they can't do what the british

2804
01:43:27,030 --> 01:43:24,719
did with the con dyne thing and say oh

2805
01:43:28,870 --> 01:43:27,040
well you know it's a low priority

2806
01:43:30,790 --> 01:43:28,880
um thing you know

2807
01:43:33,109 --> 01:43:30,800
some guy inputted a few things into an

2808
01:43:35,830 --> 01:43:33,119
excel spreadsheet they've spent millions

2809
01:43:36,790 --> 01:43:35,840
of dollars tax tax dollars

2810
01:43:38,149 --> 01:43:36,800
they're gonna have to come up with

2811
01:43:40,790 --> 01:43:38,159
something better than that i mean and

2812
01:43:44,870 --> 01:43:40,800
the i mean i read that report and it's

2813
01:43:46,470 --> 01:43:44,880
so amateurish this is a pentagon report

2814
01:43:48,310 --> 01:43:46,480
you know honestly i mean a work

2815
01:43:49,910 --> 01:43:48,320
experience student could come up with

2816
01:43:51,030 --> 01:43:49,920
something

2817
01:43:52,229 --> 01:43:51,040
so

2818
01:43:54,070 --> 01:43:52,239
i i just think we're going to see a

2819
01:43:55,030 --> 01:43:54,080
rerun of that what they're going to do

2820
01:43:56,870 --> 01:43:55,040
is they're going to they're going to

2821
01:43:59,350 --> 01:43:56,880
reach the same conclusion that all the

2822
01:44:00,950 --> 01:43:59,360
other studies in the past have reached

2823
01:44:03,109 --> 01:44:00,960
um that yeah

2824
01:44:05,750 --> 01:44:03,119
something's going on um but we don't

2825
01:44:07,430 --> 01:44:05,760
know what it is and

2826
01:44:08,870 --> 01:44:07,440
they're going to have to throw that back

2827
01:44:10,149 --> 01:44:08,880
and then people are going to be like

2828
01:44:12,149 --> 01:44:10,159
this but they're going to be in

2829
01:44:14,229 --> 01:44:12,159
disbelief aren't they and we're all

2830
01:44:15,270 --> 01:44:14,239
going to be saying what about the nimitz

2831
01:44:17,270 --> 01:44:15,280
incident

2832
01:44:20,550 --> 01:44:17,280
didn't you do a proper study of that and

2833
01:44:22,550 --> 01:44:20,560
we already knew they didn't even though

2834
01:44:24,790 --> 01:44:22,560
that was in 2004

2835
01:44:26,470 --> 01:44:24,800
if you read that um that report by the

2836
01:44:28,629 --> 01:44:26,480
us navy which is actually one of the

2837
01:44:30,310 --> 01:44:28,639
most interesting documents of all is it

2838
01:44:32,830 --> 01:44:30,320
do you know the one that it's about 16

2839
01:44:35,430 --> 01:44:32,840
pages i know very very well

2840
01:44:36,550 --> 01:44:35,440
yeah so embarrassing because they

2841
01:44:38,629 --> 01:44:36,560
basically say they had all these

2842
01:44:40,229 --> 01:44:38,639
fantastic radars but they weren't using

2843
01:44:43,350 --> 01:44:40,239
the right ones and they couldn't keep

2844
01:44:45,750 --> 01:44:43,360
the object on radar and um

2845
01:44:47,430 --> 01:44:45,760
this this um radar was in the wrong

2846
01:44:49,750 --> 01:44:47,440
place at the right time another one was

2847
01:44:51,990 --> 01:44:49,760
in the right place at the wrong time and

2848
01:44:53,430 --> 01:44:52,000
no one sent an email reporting this up

2849
01:44:55,030 --> 01:44:53,440
the chain of command because everyone

2850
01:44:56,870 --> 01:44:55,040
was standing around with like tin foil

2851
01:44:58,790 --> 01:44:56,880
that's on taking the mickey out of the

2852
01:45:00,790 --> 01:44:58,800
pilots i mean

2853
01:45:03,350 --> 01:45:00,800
this is this is like you know the the

2854
01:45:05,750 --> 01:45:03,360
only superpower in the world and that's

2855
01:45:07,750 --> 01:45:05,760
the best they can do

2856
01:45:11,270 --> 01:45:07,760
yeah again i think we finally realized

2857
01:45:13,270 --> 01:45:11,280
that um the ridicule and the taboo

2858
01:45:15,669 --> 01:45:13,280
side of it which has been actually

2859
01:45:17,270 --> 01:45:15,679
discouraging people that the fact that

2860
01:45:19,109 --> 01:45:17,280
the only that's the only significant

2861
01:45:20,470 --> 01:45:19,119
thing in the pentagon report to me was

2862
01:45:22,709 --> 01:45:20,480
the fact that they've acknowledged the

2863
01:45:25,510 --> 01:45:22,719
fact that they basically need to take

2864
01:45:27,669 --> 01:45:25,520
this seriously and people who see these

2865
01:45:29,750 --> 01:45:27,679
things particularly military pilots and

2866
01:45:31,830 --> 01:45:29,760
that rather than taking the michael out

2867
01:45:34,709 --> 01:45:31,840
of them they need to be have a very

2868
01:45:37,350 --> 01:45:34,719
clear reporting channel so

2869
01:45:39,510 --> 01:45:37,360
um they can report what they see in real

2870
01:45:41,189 --> 01:45:39,520
time and it goes to the right person and

2871
01:45:42,790 --> 01:45:41,199
that they it can be investigated

2872
01:45:45,109 --> 01:45:42,800
immediately and that's what's been

2873
01:45:46,550 --> 01:45:45,119
getting for the last 70 years

2874
01:45:49,030 --> 01:45:46,560
you know because because by the time

2875
01:45:51,350 --> 01:45:49,040
it's actually got to somebody like di55

2876
01:45:55,990 --> 01:45:51,360
this the trail is cold the centers has

2877
01:45:59,030 --> 01:45:56,000
been lost the the hard data the real um

2878
01:46:01,350 --> 01:45:59,040
real-time data you know people are sat

2879
01:46:03,189 --> 01:46:01,360
looking at radar screens when somebody

2880
01:46:04,709 --> 01:46:03,199
reports something a pilot they need to

2881
01:46:06,629 --> 01:46:04,719
sort of they need to be able to sort of

2882
01:46:08,709 --> 01:46:06,639
immediately correlate that with the

2883
01:46:10,950 --> 01:46:08,719
target on radar which is what they're

2884
01:46:13,669 --> 01:46:10,960
finally saying they might actually get

2885
01:46:15,430 --> 01:46:13,679
around to doing if you read that report

2886
01:46:17,350 --> 01:46:15,440
about bloody time as well it's only like

2887
01:46:19,189 --> 01:46:17,360
70 years you know

2888
01:46:21,030 --> 01:46:19,199
absolutely i mean listen i could have a

2889
01:46:23,669 --> 01:46:21,040
conversation for another hour about that

2890
01:46:25,350 --> 01:46:23,679
report and about the cases and stuff but

2891
01:46:27,430 --> 01:46:25,360
we'll jump on to adam's question adam

2892
01:46:28,629 --> 01:46:27,440
goldsack asks why do you think the uk

2893
01:46:32,310 --> 01:46:28,639
and the us have very different

2894
01:46:34,229 --> 01:46:32,320
approaches to uap

2895
01:46:35,990 --> 01:46:34,239
yeah that's an interesting one um i

2896
01:46:38,709 --> 01:46:36,000
think it's because the uk has always

2897
01:46:41,109 --> 01:46:38,719
been in the shadow of the usa and if you

2898
01:46:42,870 --> 01:46:41,119
look at some of the surviving documents

2899
01:46:44,870 --> 01:46:42,880
you know you know i've said most of the

2900
01:46:46,629 --> 01:46:44,880
early ones have been destroyed

2901
01:46:49,270 --> 01:46:46,639
and there are a few that have survived

2902
01:46:51,590 --> 01:46:49,280
but what you find is is that

2903
01:46:53,350 --> 01:46:51,600
because we've always been short of cash

2904
01:46:56,310 --> 01:46:53,360
basically

2905
01:46:57,990 --> 01:46:56,320
as a country and if you read some of the

2906
01:47:00,229 --> 01:46:58,000
some of the memos and some of the

2907
01:47:01,510 --> 01:47:00,239
archive material they actually say why

2908
01:47:02,950 --> 01:47:01,520
should we

2909
01:47:05,350 --> 01:47:02,960
spend money on this subject when the

2910
01:47:07,350 --> 01:47:05,360
americans are so better resourced why

2911
01:47:09,030 --> 01:47:07,360
don't we just let them get on with it

2912
01:47:10,870 --> 01:47:09,040
see what their conclusions are and we'll

2913
01:47:13,669 --> 01:47:10,880
just go along with that

2914
01:47:16,709 --> 01:47:13,679
so that i think explains um the

2915
01:47:18,470 --> 01:47:16,719
difference in approach and um

2916
01:47:20,310 --> 01:47:18,480
i think that that's that's the root of

2917
01:47:21,590 --> 01:47:20,320
it that we've always been sort of in

2918
01:47:23,510 --> 01:47:21,600
their shadow

2919
01:47:27,030 --> 01:47:23,520
but because the usa have never done a

2920
01:47:30,629 --> 01:47:28,550
we've both been chasing each other's

2921
01:47:33,270 --> 01:47:30,639
shadows basically and also there is all

2922
01:47:35,830 --> 01:47:33,280
these pets with petty rivalries going on

2923
01:47:38,709 --> 01:47:35,840
um where one country won't share

2924
01:47:42,310 --> 01:47:38,719
intelligence with another country and

2925
01:47:43,750 --> 01:47:42,320
all that sort of thing um but i think um

2926
01:47:45,830 --> 01:47:43,760
i think we've been a bit more

2927
01:47:48,470 --> 01:47:45,840
open-minded in the after you know the

2928
01:47:49,750 --> 01:47:48,480
amount the the us um project blue book

2929
01:47:54,229 --> 01:47:49,760
short

2930
01:47:56,870 --> 01:47:54,239
door i think 1970 69 yeah 69 well that

2931
01:47:59,109 --> 01:47:56,880
was the opportunity that we had the

2932
01:48:01,189 --> 01:47:59,119
british if we don't wanted to say right

2933
01:48:03,189 --> 01:48:01,199
that's it we're going to shut down our

2934
01:48:05,430 --> 01:48:03,199
project as well but we didn't

2935
01:48:06,709 --> 01:48:05,440
no because we've just been looking

2936
01:48:08,310 --> 01:48:06,719
through it yeah

2937
01:48:10,070 --> 01:48:08,320
yeah and then

2938
01:48:11,910 --> 01:48:10,080
to our credit i mean i know it was like

2939
01:48:14,629 --> 01:48:11,920
a tiny amount of money that we spent on

2940
01:48:16,709 --> 01:48:14,639
it but you know we continued monitoring

2941
01:48:18,790 --> 01:48:16,719
the subject and doing it very sort of

2942
01:48:21,669 --> 01:48:18,800
openly as well and encouraging people to

2943
01:48:24,390 --> 01:48:21,679
report right up to 2009.

2944
01:48:26,310 --> 01:48:24,400
so i i i it's interesting that

2945
01:48:27,830 --> 01:48:26,320
the british sort of interest is sort of

2946
01:48:29,669 --> 01:48:27,840
like being massive

2947
01:48:30,470 --> 01:48:29,679
up to about that point and we've sort of

2948
01:48:32,390 --> 01:48:30,480
now

2949
01:48:34,149 --> 01:48:32,400
receded and suddenly

2950
01:48:37,750 --> 01:48:34,159
you know the american military are where

2951
01:48:39,830 --> 01:48:37,760
it's it's all happening and we're saying

2952
01:48:41,510 --> 01:48:39,840
it's nothing to do with us anymore

2953
01:48:43,189 --> 01:48:41,520
yeah absolutely i'm just gonna bring

2954
01:48:45,109 --> 01:48:43,199
this comment here from beardy weird he

2955
01:48:46,950 --> 01:48:45,119
says five eyes they share

2956
01:48:48,390 --> 01:48:46,960
now i'll make a statement on that is

2957
01:48:49,750 --> 01:48:48,400
you'll be surprised how much they don't

2958
01:48:51,830 --> 01:48:49,760
share

2959
01:48:53,990 --> 01:48:51,840
i've come across so many things recently

2960
01:48:56,390 --> 01:48:54,000
in in my research where

2961
01:48:57,910 --> 01:48:56,400
yeah the the five countries should be

2962
01:49:01,430 --> 01:48:57,920
sharing yeah here have this with the

2963
01:49:02,629 --> 01:49:01,440
five countries they don't they should

2964
01:49:03,910 --> 01:49:02,639
but they don't

2965
01:49:05,270 --> 01:49:03,920
so it's not as black and white as you

2966
01:49:07,510 --> 01:49:05,280
might think it is

2967
01:49:09,750 --> 01:49:07,520
um the final question is from dave

2968
01:49:15,589 --> 01:49:09,760
partridge here says can you ask david

2969
01:49:18,709 --> 01:49:15,599
what he knows about room 801 uh

2970
01:49:21,270 --> 01:49:18,719
yes room 801 yeah now um

2971
01:49:23,350 --> 01:49:21,280
i think it it was a initial it was

2972
01:49:24,550 --> 01:49:23,360
originally mentioned in a new in a very

2973
01:49:26,470 --> 01:49:24,560
obscure

2974
01:49:28,470 --> 01:49:26,480
newspaper article are thinking about

2975
01:49:30,310 --> 01:49:28,480
1957.

2976
01:49:32,790 --> 01:49:30,320
uh some i think it was called the empire

2977
01:49:35,030 --> 01:49:32,800
news and they used to run ufo stories

2978
01:49:37,910 --> 01:49:35,040
and and one of them was that the top

2979
01:49:39,350 --> 01:49:37,920
secret air ministry headquarters

2980
01:49:43,030 --> 01:49:39,360
um

2981
01:49:45,030 --> 01:49:43,040
was apparently in room 501

2982
01:49:47,270 --> 01:49:45,040
of the i think it was the metropole

2983
01:49:49,510 --> 01:49:47,280
building in northumberland avenue in

2984
01:49:50,950 --> 01:49:49,520
london i've actually been in this

2985
01:49:52,790 --> 01:49:50,960
building for one of the documentaries i

2986
01:49:55,669 --> 01:49:52,800
did about 20 years ago and we actually

2987
01:49:56,709 --> 01:49:55,679
went to where 801 was which was right up

2988
01:50:03,350 --> 01:49:56,719
in the

2989
01:50:06,870 --> 01:50:03,360
they denied that this was where the um

2990
01:50:09,109 --> 01:50:06,880
the air ministry um ufo investigation

2991
01:50:10,550 --> 01:50:09,119
office was at that time and apparently

2992
01:50:12,070 --> 01:50:10,560
one of their reporters had actually

2993
01:50:13,669 --> 01:50:12,080
managed to get in there and apparently

2994
01:50:15,350 --> 01:50:13,679
was there was loads of filing cabinets

2995
01:50:19,270 --> 01:50:15,360
and there was a map on the wall with

2996
01:50:21,270 --> 01:50:19,280
pins stuck in it where related stuff

2997
01:50:22,790 --> 01:50:21,280
now they denied it and i think there's a

2998
01:50:24,629 --> 01:50:22,800
there's a letter that i managed to get

2999
01:50:25,910 --> 01:50:24,639
donald keough you remember the um

3000
01:50:26,870 --> 01:50:25,920
american

3001
01:50:28,550 --> 01:50:26,880
uh

3002
01:50:30,390 --> 01:50:28,560
who wrote all those books in the 50s

3003
01:50:32,550 --> 01:50:30,400
really big name he actually wrote to the

3004
01:50:35,510 --> 01:50:32,560
mod and there's a letter in in his

3005
01:50:38,629 --> 01:50:35,520
personal files from them denying

3006
01:50:41,350 --> 01:50:38,639
that that was where um the the the nerve

3007
01:50:42,550 --> 01:50:41,360
center of um effectively

3008
01:50:45,430 --> 01:50:42,560
um

3009
01:50:48,709 --> 01:50:45,440
you know i said di55 took over in 1967

3010
01:50:50,950 --> 01:50:48,719
it was the predecessors of um the i-55

3011
01:50:53,270 --> 01:50:50,960
who were known as ddi tech which was the

3012
01:50:55,750 --> 01:50:53,280
air ministry intelligence

3013
01:50:57,350 --> 01:50:55,760
and funnily enough

3014
01:50:59,189 --> 01:50:57,360
amongst all those thousands and

3015
01:51:01,510 --> 01:50:59,199
thousands of pages in the national

3016
01:51:05,350 --> 01:51:01,520
archives and there was a few from the

3017
01:51:07,189 --> 01:51:05,360
1950s that survived and in one of them

3018
01:51:09,510 --> 01:51:07,199
there is an actual message from one of

3019
01:51:12,310 --> 01:51:09,520
the memo from one of the um the air

3020
01:51:14,950 --> 01:51:12,320
ministry intelligence officers to

3021
01:51:16,390 --> 01:51:14,960
another one and it's the address on it i

3022
01:51:18,310 --> 01:51:16,400
couldn't believe this when i say it was

3023
01:51:20,470 --> 01:51:18,320
room 800

3024
01:51:23,910 --> 01:51:20,480
metropole building so it was actually

3025
01:51:25,270 --> 01:51:23,920
the room next door not april 1 800 and

3026
01:51:27,270 --> 01:51:25,280
it's actually there in one of the

3027
01:51:29,589 --> 01:51:27,280
documents which

3028
01:51:30,950 --> 01:51:29,599
that is they were actually right and

3029
01:51:33,830 --> 01:51:30,960
they'd be correct

3030
01:51:36,390 --> 01:51:33,840
they were based where um this that

3031
01:51:38,070 --> 01:51:36,400
newspaper reporter said there were four

3032
01:51:40,550 --> 01:51:38,080
from the point of view of the mod if

3033
01:51:43,669 --> 01:51:40,560
they were asked out right is your um ufo

3034
01:51:44,870 --> 01:51:43,679
hq in room 801 they weren't lying when

3035
01:51:49,030 --> 01:51:44,880
they said no

3036
01:51:51,270 --> 01:51:49,040
because it was in the next room 800.

3037
01:51:52,790 --> 01:51:51,280
that's amazing oh my goodness that's a

3038
01:51:54,470 --> 01:51:52,800
fantastic question

3039
01:51:56,470 --> 01:51:54,480
it's really amusing

3040
01:51:58,149 --> 01:51:56,480
yeah no i haven't that building's now

3041
01:52:01,030 --> 01:51:58,159
being sold it's not an mod building

3042
01:52:03,109 --> 01:52:01,040
anymore which is all right

3043
01:52:05,430 --> 01:52:03,119
so so whatever's going on now somewhere

3044
01:52:07,510 --> 01:52:05,440
within mod and defense intelligence or

3045
01:52:08,790 --> 01:52:07,520
whatever we just don't know where it is

3046
01:52:10,470 --> 01:52:08,800
we don't know what it's called we don't

3047
01:52:11,430 --> 01:52:10,480
know where it is who's involved or

3048
01:52:12,950 --> 01:52:11,440
anything

3049
01:52:14,950 --> 01:52:12,960
yeah i've got

3050
01:52:17,669 --> 01:52:14,960
an idea of where it's where it's based

3051
01:52:18,550 --> 01:52:17,679
but he's not in central london

3052
01:52:21,000 --> 01:52:18,560
okay

3053
01:52:23,350 --> 01:52:21,010
that's a conversation for another time

3054
01:52:24,709 --> 01:52:23,360
[Laughter]

3055
01:52:26,470 --> 01:52:24,719
well david listen thank you i think

3056
01:52:29,109 --> 01:52:26,480
we've covered all bases here right now

3057
01:52:30,470 --> 01:52:29,119
um i'm sure we could do this you know in

3058
01:52:32,870 --> 01:52:30,480
a couple of months time about another

3059
01:52:34,790 --> 01:52:32,880
subject so the door's always open i

3060
01:52:36,629 --> 01:52:34,800
really appreciate your time

3061
01:52:38,709 --> 01:52:36,639
um this has been a as always a

3062
01:52:40,870 --> 01:52:38,719
fascinating conversation i think judging

3063
01:52:43,189 --> 01:52:40,880
by the viewers and stuff and the numbers

3064
01:52:45,430 --> 01:52:43,199
other people have enjoyed it too so yeah

3065
01:52:46,950 --> 01:52:45,440
thank you so much um

3066
01:52:48,709 --> 01:52:46,960
we'll have a little chat we'll have a

3067
01:52:49,990 --> 01:52:48,719
little chat afterwards um but to

3068
01:52:51,510 --> 01:52:50,000
everybody that's watching this live

3069
01:52:53,350 --> 01:52:51,520
thank you so much everyone that's

3070
01:52:55,350 --> 01:52:53,360
watching on youtube and listening on the

3071
01:52:56,950 --> 01:52:55,360
anomalous podcast network i thank you so

3072
01:52:59,030 --> 01:52:56,960
much and uh

3073
01:53:00,629 --> 01:52:59,040
yeah we'll see you in a couple of days

3074
01:53:03,669 --> 01:53:00,639
for the next one keep watching the skies

3075
01:53:06,790 --> 01:53:05,030
listen i've just been re-watching

3076
01:53:09,030 --> 01:53:06,800
episodes of the x-files so it sort of

3077
01:53:12,310 --> 01:53:09,040
buried itself in my oh you have to you

3078
01:53:14,390 --> 01:53:12,320
have to always necessary so guys take